Eternal torment VS Annihilation

I never said that but I do think you are going to seed on a few words to make it say something it is not saying.....the words of Jesus are clear in Luke 16 and if the dead saved and lost are not conscience he used a deceptive view to teach truth......end of story!

Click. Dave, I posted Scripture and you responded to me like I should be smarter than to believe what it says? That the dead sleep in Him. I see the Luke story as a parable. People have made up some extra-Bibical rule saying it cannot be because real people are named in it. Going to seed? Really? Wow. The words specifically say they sleep. Over and over again. But hey, you can say they don't. That is your perogative.

Magenta....your view does not bear up with truth.....you and I will never agree on this....and Luke 16 is NOTHING LIKE A PARABLE, is not CALLED A PARABLE and regardless.....if the dead sleep in the manner you are saying then JESUS USED SOMETHING FALSE to teach truth.....GOD does not use fallacies and falsehoods to promote truth.....end of story!!

Sorry that view does not jive and no one will ever convince me that Jesus spoke a parable that had something false or fake or untrue in it to teach truth...ever!!

You can forget it.....the verses you quote do not prove that the dead sleep...and that is what you are missing....death is compared to sleep....and like I said....what Jesus said was clear.....because the bible does not promote soul sleep or being annihilated...

Nothing like a parable .What's a parable like.

Jesus said with out parable he spoke not .That enough to convince me. What what it take to convince you? The words "this is a parable"?

The word parable is not in chapter 14 . Are there any parable in that chapter?

I would offer..another way of looking at it. Two kinds of "dead" spoken of in the bible..

1# dead, never to rise to new spirit life

2# dead asleep, awaiting for the wake up call on the last day ……(no snooze alarms)

When those dead asleep and those still reigning with Christ by faith on the last day in the twinkling of the eye.. both as one rise and receive their new promised incorruptible body

I would think the bible defines the usage of the words. Dead asleep waiting for the wake up call. "Arise" for the believers glory unto God. No glory with the other kind of death (second)

John11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

There he divides death into kinds. Glory and no glory and underscores it the glory by thereby. You could call it the kind of death that glories God not seen. Our grieving is not as the world as the end of the matter but the new beginning.

Satan as usual it would seem would have men believe its all one in the same to take way the seed of understanding.. If God said one kind he would say two kinds. The upside down god of this world loves to turn things upside down to take away the spiritual un-seen understanding of faith.

Again the Holy Spirit I think defines the kind of death to his glory not the kind that will not rise. But those who will.

When Jesus first said he would not die It would seem clear not die like any human but one to the glory of God. Later in verse 14 he tells them plainly he is dead .It does not contradict the first words "This sickness is not unto death_ but defines the parable of life and death how it relates to the word sleep as dead asleep. Not dead, dead, dead, dead, 4 days

John11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (4 days)

By all human standard he had no life no qualifier by which he could arise.

The one who arose in three day is the ressurection .It his second call it would seem we are all hoping to hear.

I believe the torment that will come to the unrepentant at the end will be the result of facing the truth about themselves. They serve no purpose after that.

Why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise?

I asked an SDA one time and he told me the comma is in the wrong place......however there is no punctuation in the original Greek correct?

Correct. Punctuation was added later and the SDA's say it should have been added after the word Today. "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise" as opposed to "Truly i tell you, today you will be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43.

An argument that I've seen to the SDA's view of the comma coming after the word "today" would be quoted as "why would Jesus need emphasis on how he's telling the truth TODAY". In other words, he is always truthful, no need to say TODAY he is being truthful which the comma after the word today implies.

The SDA's believe it was translated incorrectly under bias of a belief, not by inspiration when punctuation was added.

Considering the circumstances and the pain under which he would had to formulate his words it would seem redundant to state "today" as a referencing himself speaking on that day, he was obviously referring to where they would be on that day.

These means the dead do not exist in some unconscious state.

Then what to do with this verse?

Jesus saith to her, 'Be not touching me, for I have not yet ascended unto my Father; and be going on to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and to your God.' John 20:17

I agree with you here. We see plenty of times where Jesus say's "truly i tell you". 19 times perhaps? Too many to list. But none that i see where he's trying to convince that he's being truthful on a particular day or time.

Not sure what you mean?
He was speaking about Himself, this does not reference a sleep state for the dead?

I was wondering about this actually

Thank you... I love it when things line up.

Some have said it to be that before Jesus went to the Father, Abraham's Bosom was Paradise.
EDIT: Actually common belief among the Jew's in Jesus' time.

That also lines up with some other statements in scripture. Matthew 12:40 of being in the "heart of the earth."

Good day JesusLives,

It is the body that is not immortal. However, everyone who comes into the world their spirit exists forever in one state or another. At the time of death those who are in Christ, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord (2 Cor.5:6, Phil.1:23). In opposition, when the unbeliever dies, just as the rich man of Lazarus fame, their spirit departs and goes down into Hades where they will remain in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment. As scripture states, there will be a resurrection of both righteous and the wicked. The righteous will receive immortal and glorified bodies, while the unrighteous will receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment in the lake of fire. Life and death are both states of conscious existence.

Life = Eternal existence in the joy of the Lord in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire

The problem with your claim above is that, if the resurrection and catching away was to take place at the second coming (end of the age), then it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer (1 Thess.5:9) and which time period Jesus said He would keep us out of (Rev.3:10). The bottom line is that, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who in Christ and therefore we will not be exposed to it.

Regarding we not being immortal, we have many scriptures that demonstrate that the spirit does indeed goes on, conscious and aware after death. The event of the rich man and Lazarus is a good example of this, that is unless it is forced into a parable and therefore getting rid of the information which reveals the rich man and Lazarus both dying and yet showing their spirits as being conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades, with Lazarus in a place of comfort and the Rich man in a place of torment in flame.

Then we have Moses and Elijah appearing before Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. We have Jesus telling the thief crucified with Him saying, "today you will be with me in paradise," which begs the question, since Jesus and the thief both died that very day, how could Jesus promise him that they would both be in paradise that same day? I hope that you are not going to use that apologetic which says that the comma was in the wrong place so that the verse reads as "Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise," instead of "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Then you have the souls of the fifth seal martyrs under the altar in heaven who are very much conscious and aware, having a conversation with the Lord. (Rev.6:9-12)

And there are many other examples demonstrating that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body.

Believers become immortal and glorified at the resurrection of the dead, with the living being changed immortal and glorified and caught up with them. This all happens prior to God's wrath at least seven years prior to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, which is the second coming. In fact, Rev.17:14, 19:14 shows those who will have previously been caught up following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the fine linen that she will have received at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven during the time of God's wath.

Richard Bauckham is just another writer. Why would you place the meaning of the event of the rich man and Lazarus in his or anyone else's hands?

By forcing the rich man and Lazarus into a parable it gets rid of the information in its plain literal sense. This literal event demonstrates that both Lazarus and the rich man die, yet there spirits are conscious and aware, both being Hades with Lazarus being in area of comfort and the rich man in the area across from Lazarus in torment in flame. By turning it into a parable it symbolizes this information, distorting what the Lord meant to convey.

In addition parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, e.g. sower = the Lord, wheat = the son's of the kingdom, the weeds = the wicked, harvesters = the angels, etc. In opposition, the rich man and Lazarus uses the real names of Abraham, Lazarus and Moses, as well as the real location of Hades.

Let's trust in what scripture says and not the false teachings of men.

I agree! They seem to view God only as a cosmic teddy bear without any righteous judgment.