Do you want the truth? Here is the truth about eschatology
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Matt 24:15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house.
Luke 21:
20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city. 22For these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.
23How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers. For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luke 17:
20When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”c
.......
26Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
30It will be just like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind.32Remember Lot’s wife! 33Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.34I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken and the other left. 35Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken and the other left.”
Psalm 11:1For the choirmaster. Of David. In the LORD I take refuge. So how can you say to me, “Flee to your mountain like a bird! 2For behold, the wicked bend their bows; they set their arrow on the string to shoot from the shadows at the upright in heart.
All these verses are talking about the same thing. Fleeing to the mountain has a spiritual meaning rather than a physical one.
In the 70AD, those that ran to the mountains were rounded up and killed, IMO. They failed to understand and Judea and Jerusalem are two regions.
So let me get this straight noose? You have Jesus Christ just peddling stories at Matthew 24:16 when He says, "then let those who are in Judea fless to the mountains." How are people misunderstanding His words? Please explain that to all of us here?
If you look closely at Matthew 24:3 His disciples ask Him a very important question based on what Jesus said at vs2. They said, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND OF THE END OF THE AGE?" Or to put it another way, "When will be the completion (Greek word sunteleias) and the end of the age/world."
Jesus then goes into detail explaining all the things that will happen just before and during the tribulation. And where did you get the idea that what Jesus said is from the viewpoint of the spiritual realm and not going to "physically" happen in real time at some point in the future?
PS: How come it's not the end of the world yet noose?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Well let me see if I can find the historical reference.
I think that the orthodox preterist view needs to be careful, while certainly there is much figurative language it still has a fulfillment, the key to know which is a literal fulfillment and which is a spiritual one.... spiritual not being any less real of course as any born again Christian who has experienced the rebirth knows.
Certainly the language is very expressive which makes it challenging..... however the fact that Jesus tells them to go to the mountains seems very practical to me.
So let me get this straight noose? You have Jesus Christ just peddling stories at Matthew 24:16 when He says, "then let those who are in Judea fless to the mountains." How are people misunderstanding His words? Please explain that to all of us here?
If you look closely at Matthew 24:3 His disciples ask Him a very important question based on what Jesus said at vs2. They said, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND OF THE END OF THE AGE?" Or to put it another way, "When will be the completion (Greek word sunteleias) and the end of the age/world."
Jesus then goes into detail explaining all the things that will happen just before and during the tribulation. And where did you get the idea that what Jesus said is from the viewpoint of the spiritual realm and not going to "physically" happen in real time at some point in the future?
PS: How come it's not the end of the world yet noose?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
This is how you know you have grossly misrepresented the scripture:
If you are planning to book an air ticket, so that you can fly to Israel from Canada or wherever, to hide on some mountain because Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies.
Jesus refers you back to Daniel:
Matthew 24:15
So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination of desolation,' described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
Mark 13:14So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the
reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Spiritual things are to be understood the reason for emphasis on that particular verse.
Actually it does say or identify who the three men are jamon. Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." One of the men was the preincarnate Jesus Christ (also known in the OT as the angel of the Lord) and the other two were actual angels.
Just read the whole chapter of Genesis 18 and notice vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child,when I am so old?" Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord?' Now go to Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He/the Lord had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place.
Notice what Genesis 19:1 states, "Now THE TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening etc. So what we have here is the Lord/God/the angel of the Lord physically appearing to Abraham and then the two angels go on to Sodom. Does this make sense to you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Horse Hockey! This "asinine" statement of yours does not make any sense. "If you are planning to book an air ticket, so that you can fly to Israel from Canada or wherever, to hide on some mountain because Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies."
Look, Jesus at Matthew 24:14 explains in the previous verses things that will happen and He identifies them as "birth pangs" at vs8. He closes with the words at vs18, "and then the end shall come."
At vs15 He says, "Threfore." This word means, "for that reason; or consequently." when we see (vs15) the Abomation of Desolation, i.e "THE" antichrist what will happen noose? The "tipoff" of all of this is when "THE" antichrist appears according to Jesus' words we are now in the tribulation. Btw, as a side note there is nothing in the words of Jesus Christ that we are going to be "raptured" before these events take place. And like on the old tv series "24," these events happen in real time, not in some imagined spirtual way. Think!
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
It is something that has been prophesied so many times by many prophets. It materialized physically with nation of Israel, but that materialization was also a prophesy to the Church which we ought to be getting the understanding from. So, the fulfillment of prophesy by Israel, was in itself a prophesy to us in the end times and Jesus was referring to the church and not Israelites.
Judea means those believers that know and understand God
Jerusalem means those believers that don't understand God whose faith has to be refined with fire.
The reason Jesus said:
Matt 23:36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, whokills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together,as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, butyou were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.
Luke 19:41As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it 42and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. 43For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”
These two groups are also described here:
Rev 2:
8To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of the First and the Last, who died and returned to life.
9I know your affliction and your poverty—though you are rich! And I am aware of the slander of those who falsely claim to be Jews, but are in fact a synagogue of Satan.
10Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 3:
7To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of the One who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What He opens, no one will shut; and what He shuts, no one will open.
8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door, which no one can shut. For you have only a little strength, yet you have kept My word and have not denied My name. 9Look at those who belong to the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews but are liars instead. I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and they will know that I love you.
10Because you have kept My command to endure with patience, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
These two groups are represented by Jerusalem (those that understand) and Judea (those that will be shelved from tribulation). This is the same thing that happened with the old remnants of Judea (Daniel and his friends) and Jerusalem, after they were taken captive in Babylon.
Jeremiah 24
cont....
Actually it does say or identify who the three men are jamon. Genesis 18:1, "Now the Lord appeared to him/Abraham by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." One of the men was the preincarnate Jesus Christ (also known in the OT as the angel of the Lord) and the other two were actual angels.
Just read the whole chapter of Genesis 18 and notice vs13, "And the Lord said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I indeed bear a child,when I am so old?" Vs14, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord?' Now go to Genesis 18:33, "And as soon as He/the Lord had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place.
Notice what Genesis 19:1 states, "Now THE TWO ANGELS came to Sodom in the evening etc. So what we have here is the Lord/God/the angel of the Lord physically appearing to Abraham and then the two angels go on to Sodom. Does this make sense to you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
That last part doesn’t make sense, script says lot went on to Zoar and the angels remained in Sodom to destroy the city.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
This is very interesting, I love stuff like this that sheds light on the deeper meaning!
Having said that it does not preclude that there were believers who escaped
Cont..
Two groups. Those that escape and those that won't.
Jer 24:
1After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away Jeconiaha son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, as well as the officials of Judah and the craftsmen and metalsmiths from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon,b the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the LORD. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early, but the other basket contained very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
3“Jeremiah,” the LORD asked, “what do you see?”
“Figs!” I replied. “The good figs are very good, but the bad figs are very bad, so bad they cannot be eaten.”
4Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5“This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, so I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I have sent away from this place to the land of the Chaldeans.c 6I will keep My eyes on them for good and will return them to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD. They will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with all their heart.
8But like the bad figs, so bad they cannot be eaten, says the LORD, so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem—those remaining in this land and those living in the land of Egypt.9I will make them a horror and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a disgrace and an object of scorn, ridicule, and cursing wherever I have banished them. 10And I will send the sword, famine, and plague against them, until they have perished from the land I gave to them and their fathers.’”
Two groups. Those that escape and those that won't.
Jer 24:
1After Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had carried away Jeconiaha son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, as well as the officials of Judah and the craftsmen and metalsmiths from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon,b the LORD showed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the LORD. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early, but the other basket contained very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
3“Jeremiah,” the LORD asked, “what do you see?”
“Figs!” I replied. “The good figs are very good, but the bad figs are very bad, so bad they cannot be eaten.”
4Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5“This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, so I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I have sent away from this place to the land of the Chaldeans.c 6I will keep My eyes on them for good and will return them to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD. They will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with all their heart.
8But like the bad figs, so bad they cannot be eaten, says the LORD, so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials, and the remnant of Jerusalem—those remaining in this land and those living in the land of Egypt.9I will make them a horror and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a disgrace and an object of scorn, ridicule, and cursing wherever I have banished them. 10And I will send the sword, famine, and plague against them, until they have perished from the land I gave to them and their fathers.’”
This is very interesting, I love stuff like this that sheds light on the deeper meaning!
Having said that it does not preclude that there were believers who escaped
But that's my point, Jesus never meant anything on 70AD:
Matt 24: 6You will hear ofwars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. These things must happen, but theend is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
Jesus' mind was not even on the 70AD events, He was talking of something more spiritual that was directed to the church rather than the Jews and believers of that time.
What I stated has nothing to do with lot going to Zoar at Genesis 19:30. I was just letting you know that at Genesis 19:1 the two actual angels who took the form of men went on to Sodom, that's all.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Mr. Noose I would have to disagree on this, I think he is absolutely referencing 70AD.
Jesus was giving very practical sound direction to His listeners and they remembered and it is recorded in history by Eusebius,, that they started to flee as early as the fall of 66 AD
"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)
U
UnderGrace
Guest
What I stated has nothing to do with lot going to Zoar at Genesis 19:30. I was just letting you know that at Genesis 19:1 the two actual angels who took the form of men went on to Sodom, that's all.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
O ok I gotcha now, I was looking in 19 for the angels departing to sodom, it was in verse 22 of 18.
22And the two men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD.
though I am still not seeing it as strange,
Before trying to dissect Matthew 24 and Luke 21, one must 1st recognize that they took place at different times and places, and they vary.
Matthew's account takes place on the Mount of Olives PRIVATELY to the disciples, whereas Luke's takes place PUBLICLY in, or just outside the Temple.
Matthew's account takes place on the Mount of Olives PRIVATELY to the disciples, whereas Luke's takes place PUBLICLY in, or just outside the Temple.
Nope.
Jesus was not talking about the events of 70AD but the entire church era which is 2000 yrs +. I understand why most people would get get confused by the words "this generation". Those words never meant the generation in the 1st century nor the physical generation at the end of age as some think, it meant the entire church era (2000 yrs +), based on the calculation (Daniel's 70 week prophesy).
U
UnderGrace
Guest
So then you have more of an "historicist" position, I have been reading about this as well.
However, they do regard the prophetic as being fulfilled in real time events for the most part throughout history and still some to be fulfilled?