Eternal torment VS Annihilation
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Satan said that, and unfortunately, many believe it. God's revealed written Word says those who believe on His Son attain to life ever after 
Those who do not believe pass into the second death.
John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son,
so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 1:12 But to all who have received him–those who believe in his name–he has given the right to become God’s children
Proverbs 11:19 Truly the righteous attain life, but whoever pursues evil finds death.
Those who do not believe pass into the second death.John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son,
so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 1:12 But to all who have received him–those who believe in his name–he has given the right to become God’s children
Proverbs 11:19 Truly the righteous attain life, but whoever pursues evil finds death.
I found this page interesting
What does it mean to say the saints go to Heaven when they die?
1. It subverts the doctrine of a future resurrection.
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). How perished if in heaven? He adds, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable” (v. 19). Such argument is void it we can have a future life without a resurrection. Hear Paul again: “If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me if the dead rise not?” (v. 32). The force of this argument is destroyed if saints go to heaven when they die. Certainly that would be advantage enough without any resurrection. The apostles gave great stress to the doctrine of a future resurrection; but multitudes in our day feel little or no interest in the doctrine; and some have lost sight of it altogether. No wonder! If the saints can live in glory without a resurrection what need is there of one?
2. It ignores a future day of judgment.
If men go to heaven and hell at death, a future day of judgment would be a solemn farce. If men are consigned to their eternal destinies at death, then decision has been made, and is already being carried into execution. And this nullifies any future judgment. No tribunal ever institutes a second trial, unless there is some doubt as to the justness of the first. God will never begin to execute a doubtful decision. When God decides he decides right. Neither will he execute a decision before it is rendered. When will it be rendered? Ans. He “shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” (2 Tim. 4:2). John the Revelator places “the time of the dead, that they should be judged,” under the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18). The dead are raised before they are judged (Rev. 20:12).
3. It gives the prophets and the saints their reward before the time.
Rev. 11:18 reads: “The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou (God) shouldst give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;” and this is placed under the seventh trumpet by John (v. 15). What right have we to outrage God’s revealed plan by teaching that the saints get their reward “before the time” (1 Cor. 4:5). “Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). “The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. 16:27).
4. It takes the saints to their reward instead of Christ’s bringing their reward to them.
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Rev. 22:12).
5. It makes the place of reward in heaven, while the Scriptures make it on earth.
“Behold the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth”
(Prov. 11:31). Read Ps. 37:9-11, 22, 27; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 5:10; 11:15.
6. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are unconscious.
“The dead know not anything” (Eccl. 9:5). “Their love and their hatred
and their envy is now perished” (v. 6). “In that very day his thoughts
perish” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “In death there is no remembrance of thee” (Ps. 6:5).
7. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are asleep.
“David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
8. It makes Christ’s coming to receive his people utterly needless. Christ makes it needful.
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive
you unto myself; that where I am there ye may be also” (John 14:3).
9. It makes death a friend and the “gate to glory.”
Paul calls death an “enemy” (1 Cor. 15:26). Hezekiah calls it “the gate to the grave” (Isa. 38:10). God calls the realm of death “The land of the enemy” (Jer. 31:16). God is going to “swallow up death in victory” (Isa. 25:8). And this will be brought to pass at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:54). If death is indeed a friend, why do good men so vigorously resent it? “You treat no other friend so ill.”
10. It is positively denied by Christ and his apostles.
Jesus says: “Where I go, thither ye cannot come” (John 7:34; 13:33, 36). Yet some teach that they got there nearly as quickly as he did, and that the thief got there just as quick; and that some even got there before he did. John writes: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but ht that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). This is spoken to negate some one’s doctrine. Whose is it? Not even Enoch and Elijah have gone to that heaven where God dwells. Jesus is the only man who has ever gone there, and he is more than man. He now dwells in “light which no man can approach unto” (1 Tim. 6:16).
11. It contradicts the word of God as to where men really do go at death.
God told Adam where he should go when he died: “Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return” (Gen. 3:19). Webster says that “thou” is the pronoun used in addressing persons. “His breath goeth forth, HE returneth unto his earth” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “Man lieth down” (Job 14:12). “Thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Ps. 104:29). “All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:20). “There is no work, nor knowledge, nor device, nor wisdom, in the grave wither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).
If you will read the Scriptures carefully you will discover that the words which denote the personality are always applied to the physical man, and never to the breath or spirit of life. Hence we must conclude that the physical man is the real man, and that the
spirit of life from God, is that which causes him to live.
12. It sanctions Satan’s falsehood by teaching that man does not surely die.
“Thou shalt not surely die.” —Satan (Gen. 3:4)
What does it mean to say the saints go to Heaven when they die?
1. It subverts the doctrine of a future resurrection.
Paul makes the resurrection indispensable to a future life. Without it they who are “fallen asleep in Christ as perished” (1 Cor. 15:18). How perished if in heaven? He adds, “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable” (v. 19). Such argument is void it we can have a future life without a resurrection. Hear Paul again: “If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me if the dead rise not?” (v. 32). The force of this argument is destroyed if saints go to heaven when they die. Certainly that would be advantage enough without any resurrection. The apostles gave great stress to the doctrine of a future resurrection; but multitudes in our day feel little or no interest in the doctrine; and some have lost sight of it altogether. No wonder! If the saints can live in glory without a resurrection what need is there of one?
2. It ignores a future day of judgment.
If men go to heaven and hell at death, a future day of judgment would be a solemn farce. If men are consigned to their eternal destinies at death, then decision has been made, and is already being carried into execution. And this nullifies any future judgment. No tribunal ever institutes a second trial, unless there is some doubt as to the justness of the first. God will never begin to execute a doubtful decision. When God decides he decides right. Neither will he execute a decision before it is rendered. When will it be rendered? Ans. He “shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” (2 Tim. 4:2). John the Revelator places “the time of the dead, that they should be judged,” under the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15-18). The dead are raised before they are judged (Rev. 20:12).
3. It gives the prophets and the saints their reward before the time.
Rev. 11:18 reads: “The nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou (God) shouldst give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;” and this is placed under the seventh trumpet by John (v. 15). What right have we to outrage God’s revealed plan by teaching that the saints get their reward “before the time” (1 Cor. 4:5). “Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14). “The Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. 16:27).
4. It takes the saints to their reward instead of Christ’s bringing their reward to them.
“Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be” (Rev. 22:12).
5. It makes the place of reward in heaven, while the Scriptures make it on earth.
“Behold the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth”
(Prov. 11:31). Read Ps. 37:9-11, 22, 27; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 5:10; 11:15.
6. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are unconscious.
“The dead know not anything” (Eccl. 9:5). “Their love and their hatred
and their envy is now perished” (v. 6). “In that very day his thoughts
perish” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “In death there is no remembrance of thee” (Ps. 6:5).
7. It contradicts the Bible doctrine that the dead are asleep.
“David fell on sleep” (Acts 13:36). “Some are fallen asleep” (1 Cor. 15:6). “Fallen asleep in Christ” (1 Cor. 15:18). “The first fruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20). “Concerning them which are asleep” (1 Thess. 4:13). “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Many that sleep in the dust” (Dan. 12:2). “And when he had said this he fell asleep” (Acts 7:60). This sleep is broken by the resurrection. “I go that I may awake him out of his sleep” (John 11:11). “Awake and sing ye that dwell in dust” (Isa. 26:19). “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness” (Ps. 17:15). “Many of the bodies of the saints that slept arose” etc., etc. The Bible is full of the sleep of the dead.
8. It makes Christ’s coming to receive his people utterly needless. Christ makes it needful.
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive
you unto myself; that where I am there ye may be also” (John 14:3).
9. It makes death a friend and the “gate to glory.”
Paul calls death an “enemy” (1 Cor. 15:26). Hezekiah calls it “the gate to the grave” (Isa. 38:10). God calls the realm of death “The land of the enemy” (Jer. 31:16). God is going to “swallow up death in victory” (Isa. 25:8). And this will be brought to pass at the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:54). If death is indeed a friend, why do good men so vigorously resent it? “You treat no other friend so ill.”
10. It is positively denied by Christ and his apostles.
Jesus says: “Where I go, thither ye cannot come” (John 7:34; 13:33, 36). Yet some teach that they got there nearly as quickly as he did, and that the thief got there just as quick; and that some even got there before he did. John writes: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but ht that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13). This is spoken to negate some one’s doctrine. Whose is it? Not even Enoch and Elijah have gone to that heaven where God dwells. Jesus is the only man who has ever gone there, and he is more than man. He now dwells in “light which no man can approach unto” (1 Tim. 6:16).
11. It contradicts the word of God as to where men really do go at death.
God told Adam where he should go when he died: “Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return” (Gen. 3:19). Webster says that “thou” is the pronoun used in addressing persons. “His breath goeth forth, HE returneth unto his earth” (Ps. 146:3, 4). “Man lieth down” (Job 14:12). “Thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Ps. 104:29). “All go unto one place; all are of the dust and all turn to dust again” (Eccl. 3:20). “There is no work, nor knowledge, nor device, nor wisdom, in the grave wither thou goest” (Eccl. 9:10).
If you will read the Scriptures carefully you will discover that the words which denote the personality are always applied to the physical man, and never to the breath or spirit of life. Hence we must conclude that the physical man is the real man, and that the
spirit of life from God, is that which causes him to live.
12. It sanctions Satan’s falsehood by teaching that man does not surely die.
“Thou shalt not surely die.” —Satan (Gen. 3:4)
I have posted before here on CC places in the Bible where God says something will last forever, when it does not mean without end. I do not have it here on this laptop, but will check for it on my laptop at home In the meantime, I found this:
In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
In the meantime, I found this:In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
-
1
- Show all
I have posted before here on CC places in the Bible where God says something will last forever, when it does not mean without end. I do not have it here on this laptop, but will check for it on my laptop at home In the meantime, I found this:
In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
In the meantime, I found this:In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
-
1
- Show all
They have made up a rule that is nowhere found in Scripture that says it cannot be a parable because it names real people. Yet the story of the rich man and Lazarus is in a chapter that is filled with parable after parable. In fact we are told that Jesus did not speak without teaching in parables (Mark 4:34).
Yes, it absolutely does disqualify it as being a parable because of the reasons already given.
First, why do you assume that Abraham is in charge of Hades? And second, God is in charge of Hades, for he created it.
It is not clear even you force it to be a parable, for there is no way to rightly interpret it because there is no symbolism in it. For the most part, mainly those who have adopted the belief in soul sleep and annihilation interpret the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and that because it destroys there interpretation. When we read it in its plain literal meaning, it makes perfect sense:
=========================================================================
Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’
30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
===========================================================================
v.20-21 - In its plain literal meaning, i.e. at face value, we are introduced to the rich man, with Lazarus being a poor beggar. That Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate longing to be fed with the crumbs from the rich man's table infers that the rich man had no compassion on Lazarus.
v.22 - Both Lazarus and the rich man physically die, with Lazarus' spirit being taken to Abraham's side in Hades and the rich man's spirit going down into a the place of torment within Hades. The fact that the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus by his side and that he complained that he was in agony, demonstrates that after both had died, their spirits were conscious and aware.
v.24 - The rich man cries out to Father Abraham to have mercy on him and send Lazarus to dip his finger in the water to touch the rich man's tongue being in agony in the flame. Just a note, just because the rich man asks for water, it does not mean that it would even do anything. The rich man may have just requested water because that is what he would have done when he was alive. The gist is that he is in torment in the flame and it can't be quenched.
v.25 - Abraham responds "remember that during your lifetime you received good things and Lazarus bad things" which would be referring to their lives before they had died. Now after death and their spirits being in Hades, their circumstances are reversed with Lazarus being in a place of comfort/paradise and the rich man left to suffer.
v.26 - Even if Lazarus could get some water for the rich man, Abraham tells him that there is a great chasm fixed between them separating the place of comfort from the place of torment, so that those in either location cannot cross over to one another. Which demonstrates that both areas were/are in Hades, but separated and unpassable.
v.27-28 The rich man then begs Abraham to send Lazarus back up to the earth to his father's house in order to warn his five brothers so that they would not come to the same place of torment.
v.29 - Abraham tells him that they have Moses and the prophets (word of God) to warn them from coming to that place of torment
v.30-31 Abraham tells him that if his brothers won't be warned and repent by the word of God, then they neither will they be persuaded to repent if someone rises from the dead, which was a hint at Jesus resurrection, meaning that, Jesus rose from the dead and people still not believe.
The rich man is there in Hades as I write this post and will remain there until he is resurrected out of Hades to stand before God at the great white throne judgment, along with all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.
If you will just read it in its plain literal meaning instead of forcing a parabolic interpretation on it, it makes perfect sense.
If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. In your case, you and others are ignoring the plain literal sense and forcing a parabolic interpretation on it, when there is no reason to apply that.
Just read it as it appears and you'll get it.
First, why do you assume that Abraham is in charge of Hades? And second, God is in charge of Hades, for he created it.
It is not clear even you force it to be a parable, for there is no way to rightly interpret it because there is no symbolism in it. For the most part, mainly those who have adopted the belief in soul sleep and annihilation interpret the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and that because it destroys there interpretation. When we read it in its plain literal meaning, it makes perfect sense:
=========================================================================
Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’
30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
===========================================================================
v.20-21 - In its plain literal meaning, i.e. at face value, we are introduced to the rich man, with Lazarus being a poor beggar. That Lazarus was laid at the rich man's gate longing to be fed with the crumbs from the rich man's table infers that the rich man had no compassion on Lazarus.
v.22 - Both Lazarus and the rich man physically die, with Lazarus' spirit being taken to Abraham's side in Hades and the rich man's spirit going down into a the place of torment within Hades. The fact that the rich man could see Abraham and Lazarus by his side and that he complained that he was in agony, demonstrates that after both had died, their spirits were conscious and aware.
v.24 - The rich man cries out to Father Abraham to have mercy on him and send Lazarus to dip his finger in the water to touch the rich man's tongue being in agony in the flame. Just a note, just because the rich man asks for water, it does not mean that it would even do anything. The rich man may have just requested water because that is what he would have done when he was alive. The gist is that he is in torment in the flame and it can't be quenched.
v.25 - Abraham responds "remember that during your lifetime you received good things and Lazarus bad things" which would be referring to their lives before they had died. Now after death and their spirits being in Hades, their circumstances are reversed with Lazarus being in a place of comfort/paradise and the rich man left to suffer.
v.26 - Even if Lazarus could get some water for the rich man, Abraham tells him that there is a great chasm fixed between them separating the place of comfort from the place of torment, so that those in either location cannot cross over to one another. Which demonstrates that both areas were/are in Hades, but separated and unpassable.
v.27-28 The rich man then begs Abraham to send Lazarus back up to the earth to his father's house in order to warn his five brothers so that they would not come to the same place of torment.
v.29 - Abraham tells him that they have Moses and the prophets (word of God) to warn them from coming to that place of torment
v.30-31 Abraham tells him that if his brothers won't be warned and repent by the word of God, then they neither will they be persuaded to repent if someone rises from the dead, which was a hint at Jesus resurrection, meaning that, Jesus rose from the dead and people still not believe.
The rich man is there in Hades as I write this post and will remain there until he is resurrected out of Hades to stand before God at the great white throne judgment, along with all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history.
If you will just read it in its plain literal meaning instead of forcing a parabolic interpretation on it, it makes perfect sense.
If the plain, literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense. In your case, you and others are ignoring the plain literal sense and forcing a parabolic interpretation on it, when there is no reason to apply that.
Just read it as it appears and you'll get it.
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INTERESTING BUT TOTALLY FALSE.
Not at all. The saints go to Heaven and are very much awake and alive with Christ. But their bodies have not been transformed and glorified. Hence the Resurrection/Rapture.
More nonsense. The future day of judgment is for those who have not been saved by grace.
The rewards will only be given when ALL THE SAINTS ARE GATHERED IN HEAVEN after the Resurrection/Rapture and appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Christ comes for His saints not to bring rewards but to complete salvation. After that the rewards are given in Heaven.
It does not help anyone to misapply Scripture.
The dead were never "unconscious" in Sheol. They were simply silent until the resurrection of Christ.
Soul Sleep is false doctrine which is taught by the cults. The body "sleeps" (or gives the appearance of repose in the grave). Ever since the resurrection of Christ, the saints are awake and alive in Heaven, hence called "witnesses" in Hebrews 12. The unsaved are in torment in Sheol/Hades.
MORE BALONEY. Christ and His apostles taught the Christians who are absent from the body are present with the Lord, and one of the best examples is Stephen in Acts 7 & 8.
There is no point going any further with this.
Not at all. The saints go to Heaven and are very much awake and alive with Christ. But their bodies have not been transformed and glorified. Hence the Resurrection/Rapture.
More nonsense. The future day of judgment is for those who have not been saved by grace.
The rewards will only be given when ALL THE SAINTS ARE GATHERED IN HEAVEN after the Resurrection/Rapture and appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Christ comes for His saints not to bring rewards but to complete salvation. After that the rewards are given in Heaven.
It does not help anyone to misapply Scripture.
The dead were never "unconscious" in Sheol. They were simply silent until the resurrection of Christ.
Soul Sleep is false doctrine which is taught by the cults. The body "sleeps" (or gives the appearance of repose in the grave). Ever since the resurrection of Christ, the saints are awake and alive in Heaven, hence called "witnesses" in Hebrews 12. The unsaved are in torment in Sheol/Hades.
MORE BALONEY. Christ and His apostles taught the Christians who are absent from the body are present with the Lord, and one of the best examples is Stephen in Acts 7 & 8.
There is no point going any further with this.
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I posted earlier in this thread about the specific phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"... and here is a post I posted (back on March 28, I think)… this phrase always means [what we commonly call] "forever"/"eternal"/etc:
[quoting that post]
"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),
found in the following verses:
--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )
--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")
--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )
--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )
[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"?]
--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"] Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and... Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/have been for the 1000 yrs [and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20] before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____"; and the same place that [of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]" ] "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also (see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named)]
[21x total, I believe]
[end of quoting that post]
This is distinct from the phrases using "age [singular]"...
[quoting that post]
"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),
found in the following verses:
--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )
--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")
--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )
--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )
[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"?]
--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"] Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and... Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/have been for the 1000 yrs [and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20] before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____"; and the same place that [of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]" ] "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also (see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named)]
[21x total, I believe]
[end of quoting that post]
This is distinct from the phrases using "age [singular]"...
I have posted before here on CC places in the Bible where God says something will last forever, when it does not mean without end. I do not have it here on this laptop, but will check for it on my laptop at home In the meantime, I found this:
In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
In the meantime, I found this:In the Old Testament the old covenant of the law is referred to as the "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8). But the New Testament records that the first covenant was "done away" and "abolished" 2 Corinthians 3:11,13. As in this story, the Aaronic priesthood is spoken of as "an everlasting priesthood" Exodus 40:15. Yet Hebrews7:14-18 declares an end to the Aaronic priesthood and a new priesthood after the order of Melchizedek.
Israel was to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16). Jonah was not in the fish’s belly "forever" Jonah 2:6. A bond slave could not possibly serve his master "forever" Exodus 21:6. God did not dwell in Solomon’s temple "forever" 1 Kings 8:13.
A very significant promise in the Old Testament is this: “And you made your people Israel to be your people forever, and you, O Lord, became their God. And now, O Lord, let the word that you have spoken concerning your servant and concerning his house be established forever, and do as you have spoken,” (1 Chronicles 17:22–23, ESV). But we see very clearly that forever is not forever, for even this promise is grounded conditionally. “Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;” (Exodus 19:5, ESV).
I think these are sufficient examples to show that in essence,
forever, may means the period of time that fulfills God’s plan. source
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather
fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire
as Jesus warns, they cannot be tormented for ever and ever.
Everlasting punishment is exactly that!
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Are we able to link to articles? I read a very well argued in favor of annihilation. Tons of scripture used in support. Or could I post it?
I am undecided at this point based on scripture I have read. Putting aside what is the cultural interpretation of Hell too.
Personally I think annihilation is more merciful. I don’t wish anyone in Hell.
It is eternal too in nature; there is no coming back from it. For those in heaven we would eventually forget (as we tend to do now with people who pass) verse always knowing they’re being tortured/pain.
A quote from the article; I have yet to confirm this.
“The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.”
Psalm 103:8-10 NIV
https://www.bible.com/111/psa.103.8-10.niv
I am undecided at this point based on scripture I have read. Putting aside what is the cultural interpretation of Hell too.
Personally I think annihilation is more merciful. I don’t wish anyone in Hell.
It is eternal too in nature; there is no coming back from it. For those in heaven we would eventually forget (as we tend to do now with people who pass) verse always knowing they’re being tortured/pain.
A quote from the article; I have yet to confirm this.
“Last of all, contrary to what most Christians might have assumed, there were a good many early church fathers who held to Annihilationism (sometimes called Conditionalism). We can find this in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (35 or 50 – 98 or 117 AD; To the Magnesians, chapter 10), Justin Martyr (103-165 AD; Dialogue with Trypho, chapters 5-6), Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202 AD; Against Heresies Book II, chapter 34), Arnobius of Sicca (253-327 AD; Against the Heathen Book II, Sections 14, 35-36, and 62), and Athanasius of Alexandria (293-373 AD; On the Carnation of the Word, chapter 1, section 4).”
“The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities.”
Psalm 103:8-10 NIV
https://www.bible.com/111/psa.103.8-10.niv