Revelation in Chronological Order?

This is what is wrong with “SPIRITUALISING” a text to make it fit our belief system

John was not told in Rev that these events will spiritually take place. He was told these events, and these literal people will do this thing.

Prophesy is given to PROVE without any doubt that God is the one true God.

When people see these literal events, They have to harden their heart to continue to deny God is God because he said these things will take place thousands of years before they happen.

SPiritualising them does not prove God is God. It does nothing to support his claim to be god. At best, it calls into question if God is God at all. That he can not prophesy literal events and the come to pass.

He literally fulfilled all things concerning the first advent, I think we can use that as our guide. And not come to the point, were we say, well these things have not happened, and/or we can not prove they happened, So lets spiritualise them to make it APPEAR they happened.

Thats called interpreting the word to fit our beliefs, not our beliefs to fit the word.

The things did not happen in AD 70. Because AD 70 was NOT the fulfillment. Let believe that God said they will happen, and lets have faith they will. Wither it fits our belief system or not.

Ahh someone who actually knows how to be civil in their disagreement. Hi!

...I see what you're getting at.

I'm not at all in disagreement with a gesture (like the cross) being the mark of the beast as a reflection of their belief. I personally believe that there are many actions that reflect the mark, with multiple things hinted at throughout the scriptures.

- Nebuchadnezzar's statue was 60 x 6 (worship)

- Solomon received 666 talents of gold yearly (money)

- I think even the 6th verse of the 6th chapter of the 6th book of the NT speaks about the mark (i.e. "the old man").

...I just focused on "the love of money" as the mark in my post to summarize the chronological view of the events of Revelation in light of human history.

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A few more reasons why I feel USA is the beast of the earth:

- revelation explains that the "sea" the first beast emerged out of represents many peoples, nations, tongues (rev 17:15). So the beast of the earth emerges from the earth, so a land that has no significant nation or large population.

- it's to operate with all the authority of the first beast. The first beast led the world. It would say hop and the world would say "how high?" That's exactly the leadership role USA plays now.

- it looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon; has two horns of authority (church and state), appears to be righteous and Christian, but its policies are *completely* contrary to the Almighty's and Christ's ways.

- it had power to give life to the image of the beast. In 1898(I think?) the motion picture was developed (animation of the image). In 1911(i think?) Hollywood was created (Hollywood = holy wood = a witch's wand to put a spell on people) which promotes the American image which is a Greco-Roman image that the world has adopted all over, having nothing whatsoever to do with the Messiah's teachings.

- power to call fire from heaven; 1945 America dropped the first Atomic weapon. That weapon was developed by tapping into the power of Uranium. The Greek word for Uranium is "Ouranos" and is literally the word translated as "heaven" in the scriptures.

- says all who doesn't worship the image should be killed; through its mass media USA propagandizes to make enemies out of any person or nation who doesn't emulate (i.e. take on the image) of USA regardless of culture. The full latin phrase where we get the word "propaganda" from is (translated to English) "the ministry for the propagation of the faith". Propaganda is literally considered a ministry, and the biggest "prophet" for that ministry is the USA media.

- causes ALL to wear the mark (free, bonded, rich, poor). Among other reasons, USA is responsible for a multitude of world policies that promote an image that is contrary to the ways of Christ...and it is our job to free ourselves from that.

This is historically verifiable. It's what Roman Catholicism's counter reformation was all about.

Please, the early Church comprised mostly of Jewish believers has a Pre-Millennial view of Revelation, thus a futurist view. It's been always their longing to see the Messiah return, straighten out this mess and set up His Kingdom.
It started here...
(Act 1:6) When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
(Act 1:7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Rome actually introduced The Amillennial view through Augustine/Origen and their 'spiritualizing' of the text.
Seldom do you see in Scripture a historicist view of Scripture except maybe a few with double fulfillment.

To detail an event that literally happened in history as fulfillment of a prophetic vision isn't spiritualizing it.

Do we even use the term "king" to represent the worlds leaders today? We only have but a couple of monarchs left in the world. Think about it, does it make any sense that at some point in the future the world is going to revert back to calling their governments "kingdoms" and appointed leaders "kings"?

It's not about spiritualizing anything it's about interpreting old archaic language in light of what we now know in the language we now use. You even promote this very act in another thread where you commented against a member who's promoting kjv-only. You called it old didn't you?

Is it spiritualizing the text to say that Rome was the historic fulfillment of the legs of iron in Neb's statue and of the scary beast with iron teeth of Daniel 7? If we follow your literal approach we're literally waiting for someone to build two huge iron legs somewhere in Babylon while a monstrous creature with iron teeth suddenly comes out of the sea somewhere one day and starts eating animals.

We dont even have lions with wings or four-headed leopards in this world.

No, we know Rome is the fulfillment of these two prophetic images because of what Rome did and was known for:

- Rome gobbled up the other kingdoms, and whatever remained that it didn't assimilate it crushed, just like the beast.

- Rome's principal metal used was iron, just like the legs and teeth.

- Rome had the longest stretch of any world empire just like legs are the longest appendage on the body.

- Rome split into two empires (eastern and western), just like we have two legs on a body.

- The monster of Daniel 7 was called a king, but Rome was never called a king or a kingdom but an Empire.

So it's not spiritualizing the text to track fulfillment by matching images from dreams/visions to historically verifiable events and actions, as we do with every other prophecy that has been fulfilled.

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And just to be clear, I didn't say everything happened in 70AD, I said the 6th seal happened in 70AD, and the first 5 seals happened just prior to that.

It's so easy to consider the 70AD destruction as a small thing since it happened so long ago and happened to someone else, but this event was CATACLYSMIC! And was still in the FUTURE from John's perspective:

- The Jews were surrounded and besieged on all sides. No one could get in or out once it started. Imagine being completely cut off like that today by Russia or Iran.

- all food supplies were cut off, so some people eventually resorted to eating their own children.

- the center of their entire identity and faith, the temple, the linchpin of their hope was completely obliterated before their eyes. The symbol of the Alrighty's prescience completely wiped away. The same living God whose mighty acts of protection amd power they would tell to their children did not show himself.

- then the massacre began. Roman soldiers gave no care to who they killed no matter if it was women or children. They slaughtered everyone once they entered into the city. Ancient historians recorded that it was like the Roman soldiers were possessed.

- then they crushed every stone of the temple for the gold that was laced within them. Ancient historians detail that not on stone was left (btw the wailing wall is confirmed as the remains of fort Antonia).

- then those who managed to escape were hunted like animals, with many captured and enslaved.

- those who managed to listen to the messiah's warning left with their lives but were completely uprooted, never allowed to return to their home ever again as Jews were barred from Judea, as its name was changed to Palestine.


Luke 21:20-24
But when YOU SEE Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.

Then let those who are in Judea flee to the MOUNTAINS, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country stay out of the city.

For these are the days of VENGEANCE, to fulfill all that is written.

How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers. For there will be great distress upon the land and WRATH AGAINST THIS PEOPLE They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Luke 23:28-30
Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but WEEP FOR YOURSELVES and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’

AT THAT TIME they [JEWS, in context] will say to the mountains, “FALL ON US!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’


Revelation 6:16
"And they say to the MOUNTAINS and to the rocks, "FALL ON US and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,"

Neither the Tribulation nor the Great Tribulation has occurred. You are also conveniently forgetting that regarding the Great Tribulation the Lord said that this was a TOTALLY UNIQUE EVENT such as had never been nor ever would be again. This ties in with the 7th seal judgments. Following that there would be major cataclysmic cosmic events as noted in the 6th seal judgments, when the earth and the heavens would be shaken, and the stars would fall from heaven.

So your so-called "Historic" interpretation is nothing less than fanciful, if not misleading and bizarre. Time to go back to a sober interpretation of the Bible.

Ok,

then explain to me

What kings of the earth in 70 AD hid under rocks begging God to have the rocks fall on them because it is too much to handle. You have any names, any groups of people, Where their any rocks in jeruslaem for them to hide under? (Remember, jesus told them to RUN so they would be protected, so why are they doing these things?)

You said kings represented what the bible says, That would be us, Would paul have hidden himself under a rock and begged God to kill him, or praised God for doing what he was doing? And would he have taught others to do this? Who would be complaining? Would it not be the guilty or the lost? And if it is the lost (in your senerio) then in either case, It is not what you claim it is now is it?

So again, Lets just interpret that word for what it says, not for what we want it to say.

Amen

Why would Jesus not tell them, The kingdom will not be restored. Instead of telling them instead it is not for them to know when. And not to worry about it (especially if like many say, it was imminent in their generation?)

Those events that you mention above will pale greatly in comparison to the coming seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not plagues of wrath which were to take place over the span of 1900 years, but will take place within a seven year period leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. As I said, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, the fatalities will be well over half the earths population and that within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments.

Oh, but there is a gape! Seventy seven year periods were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem:

7 sevens (49 years) = restore and rebuild Jerusalem

62 sevens (434 years) = at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off (Christ crucified).

Therefore, 69 of the seventy sevens have been fulfilled. Below is the last seven:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

The "He" in the verse above has to be the last person spoken of in verse 26, which the prince or ruler that is to come. It cannot be referring to the Messiah, for He was cut of at the end of the sixty nine sevens. Where this last seven deals with the events which take place after that sixty ninth seven.

He (the ruler) establishes a covenant with many. We know this is referring to Israel because after He makes his covenant
it states that he causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease and he sets up an abomination in the holy place, both of which would be pointing to Israel's temple worship. In Matt.24:15, Jesus quoted from Daniel 9:27:

"So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

From the time that Jesus quoted the above to the destruction of the temple, no seven year covenant was made and not abomination was set up. Therefore, God destined the events of Daniel 9:27 to be fulfilled in the future in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth. Daniel 9:27 will take place during that last seven years during the time of God's wrath. And if you don't think that God puts gaps in His prophesies, He demonstrated that He does. In Luke 4:18-19, while Jesus is in the synagogue, the attendant hands Him the scroll of Isaiah where He reads from Isaiah 61:1-2, except that He stopped mid-sentence leaving off "the day of vengeance of our God." The information that He read prior to that He said was fulfilled that day in their hearing, with "the day of vengeance of our God" being a future event, which is referring to the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the beasts kingdom.

When Jesus quotes Daniel 9:27, it alerts the reader of Matt.24:15 to the fact that the abomination being set up takes place in the middle of the seven years, with Matt.24:30-31 taking place 3 1/2 years after the abomination will have been set up when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.


Nebuchadnezzar's statue represents all human government with the ten toed kingdom made partly of iron and baked clay, as that last kingdom, which the Rock (Jesus) destroys by falling on the feet of the statue, which will be accomplished via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The reference to the statue being smashed to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor with the wind blowing the chaff away without leaving a trace, is indicative of the dismantling of all human government.

The reference to that ten-toed kingdom being partly of iron demonstrates that it will be of the same kingdom before it which was the legs of iron, which is representing Rome when it was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. Therefore, these ten toes made of partly iron and clay will be of the same Roman empire, except that because of the mixture of people it will not have the strength that it did when it was pure iron (see Dan.2:43). In conclusion, the ten-toed kingdom is a future kingdom that will be a revived or extension of the Roman empire.

Then it states that the Rock grows into a great mountain and fills the whole earth, which is referring to Christ's reign during the thousand years which begins when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Below is a summary of the chronological order of end-time events:

* The gathering of the church, both dead and living, takes place (John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:13-17)

* The man of lawlessness/antichrist establishes his seven year covenant (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15-22). Note: During the entire seven years the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be in operation

* In the middle of the seven the antichrist puts and end to sacrifices and offerings and the abomination is set up in the holy place within the temple, which causes the desolation (Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6, 14)

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age at the end of the seven years, after the 7th bowl has been poured out which completes God's wrath (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 17:14, 19:11-21).

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

* Satan and his angels are seized and thrown into the Abyss and restricted there during Christ's thousand year reign (Rev.20:1-3)

* The great tribulation saints are resurrected and rule with Christ during that thousand years (Rev.20:4-6)

God's wrath will take place during that last seven years and not over a period of 1900 years. The time of God's coming wrath will be like no other time in history, unprecedented. And it will happen in a short period of seven years. Because Jesus has already suffered God's wrath, satisfying it completely, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and this is why believers must be removed prior to God's coming wrath.

Historist view isn't the preterist view or the futurist view. The millennium hasn't happened yet per the historist view. The historist view is that the Almighty has been sovereign in the affairs of man and has never stopped his plan or taken a gapped break, and that stages of prophecy in Revelation have progressively been fulfilled all this time for 2000 years, while we still have a bit more prophecy left to go before the return and millennium reign of Christ.

With respect, this is how time works and how prophecies have been fulfilled. For instance, the 70 weeks prophecy given to Daniel went from the time of Ezra to the Messiah's ministry. That's from 457BC to between 27-34AD. So that one specific prophecy spans nearly 500 years.

All of it was in Daniel's future.

...But 49 years of it Ezra lived through, with the rest in his future.

...And then much of it had already past for the first century Jews during the time of Christ.

The Almighty's prophecies are fulfilled in the progress of time.

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Your grandfather's future is your present. And your grandfather's present is your past.

If there is one prophecy in a series of prophecies that spans 200 years, that is written by your grandfather, it would be in HIS future all of his life, but you'd possibly live to see it fulfilled in your lifetime...however, then that fulfilled prophecy would be in your grandchildren's past as they wait for the next set of prophecies to be fulfilled either in their lifetime or in their children's future...even if they read your great grandfather's pages from his perspective.

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Of course the early church has a future view of Revelation, ALL of it was their future. But what does that have to do with OUR experience of those prophecies in the passage of time?

No, the disciples were not specifically asking Jesus about the destruction of the temple. Jesus offered up the destruction of the temple when they were bringing His attention to the building of the temple. He had already told them that not one stone would be left upon another that would not be thrown down. Then they ask him "when will all this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Since Jesus had already told the disciples about the destruction of the temple, He then focuses on the signs leading up to His coming and the end of the age.

Regarding this, we know that those signs and His coming will take place in the last generation and not over a period of 1900 years. After Jesus tells the disciples about all of these signs, He then says the following:

"Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened."

"This generation" is directly linked to the signs that Jesus listed and is therefore dependent upon those signs as identifying the generation that He was referring to. In other words, whatever generation those signs begin to take place in, that is the generation that He was speaking about.

Many erroneously claim that when Jesus said "this generation" that He was referring to the generation that He was speaking from. The problem with this, besides the grammatical error, is that none of the signs had taken place during the generation that Jesus was in, which would disqualify it as being the generation that Jesus was referring to. On the contrary, that generation with those signs is yet to take place. However, I personally believe that we are in the cusp of that generation and that once the church has been gathered, then those signs will begin to take place, leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

False! Here is the scripture:

"Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains?”

Notice that the scripture states "the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains." This would be referring to all of the inhabitants in the world. Therefore, how do you conclude that the 6th seal is about Israel? Stick with the context of the scriptures!

The 6th seal, like all of the seals, trumpets and bowls, will be directed at the entire world and just Israel.

How is it you ask me to explain but then make your own conclusions before I answer? Sounds like you don't really want an explanation.

You mean to tell me that if you were given a vision by the Almighty that America was about to be destroyed because of your fellow citizens and their sins and that you should flee, that even if you prepared and left in time to save you and your immediate family...leaving the life you worked so hard to build, for however long you've been alive...with no idea how or where you'd restart...told to hide off grid in the mountains...that you'd be completely stoic and unemotional? You wouldn't once mourn? What about those of your loved ones who didn't heed your warning who suffered and died? You wouldn't shed one tear for your situation even though you were obedient and were saved?

Joshua, 2nd to Moses, was completely righteous and yet his army was defeated because someone else in his camp sinned... and Joshua mourned because of the judgment, with the Almighty having to tell him to stop.

We can't divorce this text from the human experience.

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And I said Israel is a royal nation, which is why you become a king once grafted into Israel under Christ.

1 kings 2:4
and so that the LORD may fulfill His promise to me: ‘If your descendants take heed to walk faithfully before Me with all their heart and soul, you will never fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.’


There was still a royal house of David in Judea even though they weren't autonomous like in their history, living under Roman rule. Mary's family and Joseph family were some of those of the royal house.

There was also an Edomite royal house still existing during the first century (recall the house of Herod both during Christ's childhood and his crucifixion).

Next, there are the atlas mountains south of Judea in Africa and the Caucasus mountains north of Judea past the seas, both into which Jews fled to during the destruction as history records. The ma made Suez canal didn't yet exist blocking israelfrom Egypt.

...And if the Messiah said flee to the mountains then yes I think if Paul were alive he would've obeyed the master and fled to hide in the mountains like the rest of them.

Finally, the disciples do not equal "all Jews". All the Jews weren't believers in the Messiah, so what would you imagine all the non-believing Jews would say as they suffered through such cataclysm? Many people today who go through terrible events pray to die instead of living through them.

We can't divorce the text from the human experience.

I understand that and because we are hundreds of years from the cross, the temptation is to look back and fit certain Scriptures into certain historic events. Us humans have quite an imagination and are good at making the pieces fit even though they may never have originally been intended as such.
So I find with the historist view, it's like astrology, who is to say which events line up (if any) with which Scriptures...very subjective.
In the OT prophecies being fulfilled in the NT, for example, we see specific events and times fulfilled just as prophesied.

Unfortunately, we can't go any further until we agree on this since it sets the chronology.


Luke 21;5-7

And as some spake OF THE TEMPLE, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? and what sign will there be when THESE THINGS shall come to pass?

The disciples specifically asked WHEN the 2nd temple...the temple they were currently looking at and admiring...would be destroyed like The Messiah just predicted it would be.

Do you agree?

Who wrote the pages of the new testament but those believers who witnessed with their own eyes the fulfillment of prophecies written the old testament by doing exactly what we're doing now...comparing scripture with events?

So do you need a new new testament authorized that details fulfillment for prophecies written in the new testament before you'll believe them? If so, who would qualify in writing them?

Your still trying to read things which are not in the text

As for me,

If God told me to go to hide in the mountains and he woudl protect me, I would trust him. I would not be screaming for him in unfaithfulness to have the rocks fall on me so I would die.

Your theory is still in error. And does not fit.

That first sentence isn't too coherent,. The Holy Spirit revealed to the Prophets those events which would take place.

2 Peter 1:21 (KJV) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
All Scripture is to be taken into consideration, as much of Scripture does it's own interpretation. Many OT prophesies are yet to be fulfilled as well.

So again, the question is, who is authorized to testify of any prophecy's fulfillment, if not witnesses? John wrote his gospel as a witness of the fulfillment of OT prophecies.

What you're telling me is scripture testifies to its own fulfillment...except you said earlier that the prophecies of Revelation are not yet fulfilled. There's no other book after the book of Revelation so what will testify to the fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies if people/believers aren't authorized to testify? It's a simple question. How will you know anything is fulfilled if there's no more scripture?

And you're assuming "unfaithfulness" in the text while not reading enough of what the Messiah said.

You're free to say what you'd do with the benefit of not living through their horror, just like you're free to say my post is in error and doesn't fit. You saying so doesn't really make it so.

I rather lean on the events in history that the Almighty has been orchestrating. He hasn't been sleeping for 2000 years.

John 12:23
He makes nations rise and then fall, builds up some and abandons others.