Revelation in Chronological Order?
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It would seem the 7th seal was already opened in chapter 8 and the sound of that last trump blew in Chapter 11 the wall of corruption came tumbling down. The kingdoms of men on earth (the churches) have become the kingdoms of God in the heavenly city prepared as His bride. Chapter 11, end the chorological order. And that end reveals the new order of His bride described as a the mother of us all, suffering as in pain.
The sun and moon as time keepers no longer needed no more darkness ( Revelation 21). No more tears the thing of here under the Sun will never be remembered or ever come to mind and His final wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged ...all on the last day in the twinkling of the eye like a thief in the night. .
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail And there appeared a "great wonder" in heaven; a woman (the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church) clothed with the sun,(the righteousness of he husband Christ) and the moon under her feet,(out of time) and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Revelation
The sun and moon as time keepers no longer needed no more darkness ( Revelation 21). No more tears the thing of here under the Sun will never be remembered or ever come to mind and His final wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged ...all on the last day in the twinkling of the eye like a thief in the night. .
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail And there appeared a "great wonder" in heaven; a woman (the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church) clothed with the sun,(the righteousness of he husband Christ) and the moon under her feet,(out of time) and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Revelation
You said "this is why Jesus said "if those days were not shortened ect..." which is from the Olivet discourse(before he was slain). In Revelation 5:3-12 it states that none were found to loose the seals or look on it,,,why do you think Jesus spoke of the things in the 7seals before he was slain at the O.D.?
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Remember, The ot has a habit of going back over things, Daniel is a good example. Rev 2 a small detail. Rev 7 greater detail. Rev I believe is even greater detail
Many believe the judgments occur simultaneously. Some believe they are sequential. I will admit. I am not sure which view I take.
Many believe the judgments occur simultaneously. Some believe they are sequential. I will admit. I am not sure which view I take.
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I am sorry, I do not know what that means. I seem to be thought many different "names" and I have no idea what they mean either. I told myself a long time ago, when I get through studying the Word, then I will have time to see what "men" have been doing with it and how it's been divided up. I can thank God I am a slow learner because I don't think I will ever get there because it is something I never want to be a part of anyway. I just read and study and what I get from the Word, I pray is truth before I share with another. I have had many things pointed out to me that lead me once again deep into the Word, and at some point will receive a "correction". Best times for me to study. So I hope it is good, for your wifes sake to, but no need to explain. Thank you
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Okay, SEAL ONE (the following is a post I made before, re-arranged slightly for our present purposes, and with a cpl bracketed additions to help clarify):
[quoting my previous post (note: different convo context, but hopefully you can see what I believe are the EQUIVALENT of "SEAL #1")]
--Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G1500 - tis - 'a certain one'" is the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3; 2Th2:2-3)]" which is the "FIRST SEAL"
(i.e. the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [Dan9:27a(26)-"for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"]). I believe both 1 and 2 Thessalonians is supplying the SEQUENCE of where [when] our Rapture takes place IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "the Day of the Lord [the time period commencing with the arrival of the man of sin/SEAL ONE]," and that is "FIRST" ("The Departure FIRST" [the same noun EVENT of v.1]) before the Day of the Lord with its man of sin can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, over the course of some time (namely, the seven years / 70th Week)--"The Day of the Lord" only ever transpires ON THE EARTH.
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is the commencement of the [earthly-located] time period, "the Day of the Lord" (that is, at SEAL #1)
(involving the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" AND all he will do, over the course of 7 yrs, leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth [FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His/Jesus' 'RETURN' there]"]). Note: "the Day of the Lord" continues on to include the entire 1000-yr earthly MK, minus "the man of sin" (2Th2:8 "whom the Lord shall consume...destroy..."; that is to say, 2Th2:9a,4,8b shows the BEGINNING/MIDDLE/END of the 7 yrs just as Dan9:27[26] does)
So I hope in all that you can see my bottom-line answer to the OP Q as to whether or not we "see" the beginning tip of the birth pangs [aka the "SEALS"]. Answ: no (I believe our Rapture occurs before SEAL #1 arrives to unfold upon the earth, and that the "24 elders" on "thrones" and with "stephanos/crowns" [Paul was told he would be given one "IN THAT DAY"
] represent the raptured "Church which is His body," following "a searching judgment" [indicated by the word "was found" in Rev5:4 (which G2147 word is also used in Paul's court-trials toward the end of Acts, throughout chpts 23-24, I think: 23:9,29; 24:5,12,18,20]). SEAL #1 follows this scene.
[end of quoting that post]
[quoting my previous post (note: different convo context, but hopefully you can see what I believe are the EQUIVALENT of "SEAL #1")]
--Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G1500 - tis - 'a certain one'" is the equivalent of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR (1Th5:2-3; 2Th2:2-3)]" which is the "FIRST SEAL"
(i.e. the "whose coming/arrival/advent/presence/parousia" [2Th2:9a] of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME [Dan9:27a(26)-"for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"]). I believe both 1 and 2 Thessalonians is supplying the SEQUENCE of where [when] our Rapture takes place IN RELATION [time-wise] TO "the Day of the Lord [the time period commencing with the arrival of the man of sin/SEAL ONE]," and that is "FIRST" ("The Departure FIRST" [the same noun EVENT of v.1]) before the Day of the Lord with its man of sin can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, over the course of some time (namely, the seven years / 70th Week)--"The Day of the Lord" only ever transpires ON THE EARTH.
--the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" is the commencement of the [earthly-located] time period, "the Day of the Lord" (that is, at SEAL #1)
(involving the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" AND all he will do, over the course of 7 yrs, leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth [FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His/Jesus' 'RETURN' there]"]). Note: "the Day of the Lord" continues on to include the entire 1000-yr earthly MK, minus "the man of sin" (2Th2:8 "whom the Lord shall consume...destroy..."; that is to say, 2Th2:9a,4,8b shows the BEGINNING/MIDDLE/END of the 7 yrs just as Dan9:27[26] does)
So I hope in all that you can see my bottom-line answer to the OP Q as to whether or not we "see" the beginning tip of the birth pangs [aka the "SEALS"]. Answ: no (I believe our Rapture occurs before SEAL #1 arrives to unfold upon the earth, and that the "24 elders" on "thrones" and with "stephanos/crowns" [Paul was told he would be given one "IN THAT DAY"
] represent the raptured "Church which is His body," following "a searching judgment" [indicated by the word "was found" in Rev5:4 (which G2147 word is also used in Paul's court-trials toward the end of Acts, throughout chpts 23-24, I think: 23:9,29; 24:5,12,18,20]). SEAL #1 follows this scene.[end of quoting that post]
Well, I was not just concentrating on just the seals, but they do have to come first. Your original question was about the chronological order "starting around the 6th seal," which is where I started and begins with the seals.
Revelation 13, which is the introduction of that beast, I believe is synonymous with when the abomination will be set up, which is in the middle of the seven years, where he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination. This can be deduced from the fact that regarding this beast it is said that he is given "authority to act for forty-two months." And during this same time is when he is given authority to make war and conquer the saints. This 42 months, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, is also mentioned in Daniel 7:25 when he, "the little horn" oppresses the saints for a time, times and half a time, which equals 3 1/2 years.
Therefore, chapter 13 is referring to the time when the beast will proclaim himself to be God and when the abomination is set up, where he begins to oppress the saints and during which time all whose names have not been written in the book of life from the beginning of the world will worship him. Paul mentions this in 1 Thess.2:4 when he refers to the man of lawlessness, that he will "oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." This all happens in the middle of the seven years and after the sounding of the 7th trumpet and with his reign continuing throughout that last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The middle of the seven years is also the same time that the woman/Israel flees out into the desert, when the male child is caught up to God and when the two witnesses will be killed. For their time of prophecy is said to be 1260 days, i.e. 3 1/2 years.
Everything other than the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is extra information regarding the same time period. For example, the beasts reign will cover the entire last 3 1/2 yeas which will be overlapped by the bowl judgments. During this same time Israel will be cared for out in the desert at that place that God will have prepared for her - Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6, 14.
I'll also throw this in the mix as well: I believe that the abomination is synonymous with the image of the beast mentioned in Rev.13 which the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast. I also believe that it will be in the middle of the seven thru the end when the mark of the beast becomes the only valid form of buying and selling.
Revelation 13, which is the introduction of that beast, I believe is synonymous with when the abomination will be set up, which is in the middle of the seven years, where he causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease and sets up that abomination. This can be deduced from the fact that regarding this beast it is said that he is given "authority to act for forty-two months." And during this same time is when he is given authority to make war and conquer the saints. This 42 months, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, is also mentioned in Daniel 7:25 when he, "the little horn" oppresses the saints for a time, times and half a time, which equals 3 1/2 years.
Therefore, chapter 13 is referring to the time when the beast will proclaim himself to be God and when the abomination is set up, where he begins to oppress the saints and during which time all whose names have not been written in the book of life from the beginning of the world will worship him. Paul mentions this in 1 Thess.2:4 when he refers to the man of lawlessness, that he will "oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." This all happens in the middle of the seven years and after the sounding of the 7th trumpet and with his reign continuing throughout that last 3 1/2 years until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The middle of the seven years is also the same time that the woman/Israel flees out into the desert, when the male child is caught up to God and when the two witnesses will be killed. For their time of prophecy is said to be 1260 days, i.e. 3 1/2 years.
Everything other than the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, is extra information regarding the same time period. For example, the beasts reign will cover the entire last 3 1/2 yeas which will be overlapped by the bowl judgments. During this same time Israel will be cared for out in the desert at that place that God will have prepared for her - Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6, 14.
I'll also throw this in the mix as well: I believe that the abomination is synonymous with the image of the beast mentioned in Rev.13 which the false prophet has the inhabitants of the earth make in honor of the first beast. I also believe that it will be in the middle of the seven thru the end when the mark of the beast becomes the only valid form of buying and selling.
Not only that, but (as you may recall I believe the "6th Trumpet[events]/2nd Woe" falls in the second half [5th Trumpet/1st Woe=mid-trib], just before the 2W are resurrected and "ascended up to heaven" Rev11:11-12), people are "send[ing] gifts to one another" [celebrating] over their deaths, v.10. (I do believe Rev13 is mid-trib, 42-mos remaining. And I do believe some people survive to the end, without taking the mark.)
Literal words (literature) are used to convey spiritual meanings. The literal letter of the law kills .The spirit of the law heals and creates a new.
Prophecy provides the spiritual understanding of the Holy Spirit of God. . Parables are prophecy as one of the many manners like tongues another manner.
In the last day he spoke through the Son of man, Jesus …...another manner. The Son of man spoke through parables without parables he spoke not to believer and non believers alike . The whole period of Kings in Israel was set a side as a parable as well as a historical record . We Look through the temporal to give us the spiritual hope as our living hope.
Prophecy provides the spiritual understanding of the Holy Spirit of God. . Parables are prophecy as one of the many manners like tongues another manner.
In the last day he spoke through the Son of man, Jesus …...another manner. The Son of man spoke through parables without parables he spoke not to believer and non believers alike . The whole period of Kings in Israel was set a side as a parable as well as a historical record . We Look through the temporal to give us the spiritual hope as our living hope.
Hello iamsoandso!
It is obvious that Jesus, while still alive, was speaking of future events. He begins with quoting Daniel regarding the setting up of the abomination in the holy place, within the temple. He is simply revealing information about the future while He was still alive.
The Olivet discourse begins with the disciples question of "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Jesus then reveals the details of that time period culminating with His return to the earth to end the age. The book of Revelation, for the most part, is a detailed account of all that is going to take place during the Olivet discourse, namely, God's wrath. He even mentions some of the seals:
Compare:
Then nation will rise against nation and kingdom (Matt.24:7)
The second seal rider on the red horse is given authority to take peace from the earth so that mankind kills each other (Rev.6:3-4)
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places (Matt.24:7)
The third seal rider on the black horse causes world-wide famine (Rev.6:5-6)
The seals are the beginnings of birth pains
This is an angel revealing these events to John in visions of heaven and the earth some forty years after the Lord's resurrection. In his vision, John sees Jesus represented figuratively as the Lamb revealing information to John in heaven regarding future events to take place on the earth.
It is obvious that Jesus, while still alive, was speaking of future events. He begins with quoting Daniel regarding the setting up of the abomination in the holy place, within the temple. He is simply revealing information about the future while He was still alive.
The Olivet discourse begins with the disciples question of "what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Jesus then reveals the details of that time period culminating with His return to the earth to end the age. The book of Revelation, for the most part, is a detailed account of all that is going to take place during the Olivet discourse, namely, God's wrath. He even mentions some of the seals:
Compare:
Then nation will rise against nation and kingdom (Matt.24:7)
The second seal rider on the red horse is given authority to take peace from the earth so that mankind kills each other (Rev.6:3-4)
There will be famines and earthquakes in various places (Matt.24:7)
The third seal rider on the black horse causes world-wide famine (Rev.6:5-6)
The seals are the beginnings of birth pains
This is an angel revealing these events to John in visions of heaven and the earth some forty years after the Lord's resurrection. In his vision, John sees Jesus represented figuratively as the Lamb revealing information to John in heaven regarding future events to take place on the earth.
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Continuing on with the things associated with SEAL #1:
--"bow" is often used when speaking of "deception" (in the OT) [which would also correspond with the man of sin's ARRIVAL, 2Th2:9a,10/Dan9:27a(26)]--"arrows" (though not mentioned) sometimes relate to "falsehoods" (like Prov25:18)
--the word for "conquering and to conquer" is the same word used in the later parts (later in the chronology), there translated as "overcome [them]" in Rev13:7 and 11:7 ("shall overcome them and kill them [the 2W]" in 11:7)
--"bow" is often used when speaking of "deception" (in the OT) [which would also correspond with the man of sin's ARRIVAL, 2Th2:9a,10/Dan9:27a(26)]--"arrows" (though not mentioned) sometimes relate to "falsehoods" (like Prov25:18)
--the word for "conquering and to conquer" is the same word used in the later parts (later in the chronology), there translated as "overcome [them]" in Rev13:7 and 11:7 ("shall overcome them and kill them [the 2W]" in 11:7)
Yes, and the reason why I say that, is because we know that the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe is Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven. In conjunction with that, when he sees that he has been cast down to the earth he pursues the woman/Israel who is cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years. Therefore, Satan's being cast out takes place in the middle of the seven, which is the result of the 7th trumpet and which he will remain until the Lord returns to the earth at the end of the 3 1/2 years, where Satan will be put into the Abyss for a thousand years. This is also why it states that when he is cast out, that he is angry because he knows that he knows that his time is short, i.e. 3 1/2 years before he goes into the Abyss.
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