Does salvation require repentance and perseverance?

Hi Blik, if someone "claims" to have become a Christian, how do we know if their "claim" is true or not?

Thanks!

~Deut

The Lord tells us that He is the only one authorized to judge, it is His job not ours. I am having a difficult enough time with Blik, don't have time for the rest of the world.

However, these scriptures sort of blows the OSAS people out of the water, doesn't it?

I don't hold to OSAS, but I disagree with your last sentence.

I wonder why, in light of your second sentence, you made this thread.

Hi again Blik, the thing about OSAS is this, you have to be "Once Saved" before you can be "Always Saved" (and just 'claiming' to be a Christian doesn't mean that you are one ... even if you 'believe' that you are as well).

The passage you posited for us from Hebrews 10 concerns 1st Century Jews (who were probably affiliated with the 1st Century Church in some way) who both knew and understood all that they needed to know about Jesus to be saved by Him ... but the continued to reject Him anyway! For them, no sacrifice for sins was left, only a fearful expectation of judgment.

'True' Christians do not keep on sinning deliberately* once they've become Christians, but these folks did (and not just any sin, rather, the sin that we know that they were guilty of committing was their continual rejection of Jesus).

Like I just said, for someone to be "Always Saved", they have to be "Once Saved" first, and the folks spoken of here in Hebrews 10:26-27 ~never~ were. There is, in fact, no indication in the text that they either claimed and/or believed themselves to be Christians, just that they 1. knew who Jesus was/why they needed to receive Him as their Lord and Savior and that 2. they never acted upon that knowledge/continued to reject Him.

~Deut
p.s. - Christians act like Christians (for the most part), even when we sin, yes?



*(The claim of someone who 1. says that they have become a Christian, but who 2. continues on in deliberate sin/a sinful lifestyle, should not be believed. If the changes that God makes in the hearts and lives of all of us who are His are never outwardly apparent in the behavior of someone who claims to be a Christian, then their "claim" should not be considered as anything more than that)
.

I thought I should address this as well., Blik. God doesn't forbid us from judging others, but He is pretty specific about how we are supposed to go about doing that .. John 7:24.

We are also commanded to test/examine ourselves to make sure that we are truly Christians/truly in the faith.


So the question from above remains, how do we do that? IOW, what test(s) do we use to obey the command to examine ourselves (since we cannot see our own hearts and/or the hearts of others like God can? .. I believe what A. W. Pink had to say in the quote of His above tells at least part of the story).

Thanks!

~Deut

The context of sin in this popular passage used against OSAS, is going back to lamb sacrifice, after being told that Jesus is the final sacrifice for their sins. That is what "no sacrifice for sins is left" means.

By trusting in what Scripture says about the believer, that they have everlasting life. Good works prove nothing.

I’m not a Hebrew in the last days. Context, context, context...

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Who shows more faith in the Son of God and the Blood of the Covenant and the Spirit of Grace than those who say that Once the Lord God saves them He eternally saves them?

Isn't it the one who insults the Spirit of Grace the one who says that God Will leave you and forsake you if you don't meet a bunch of made up requirements, directly against what God Himself says?

I believe you are indeed correct Blik!

Even in one of the best known verses in the Bible ever quoted. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that "whosoever BELIEVETH" in Him? "SHOULD not perish!" Not WOULD not! As OSAS, or those who believe, and practice, just believing is ENOUGH!
Repenting, is a "work of faith and trust!"
Perservering, is a "work of faith and trust" also!

Does salvation require repentance and perseverance? That seems like a loaded question: like a gun ready to shoot someone!

I will just put it this way for me: It is a joy to live a life of repentance and perseverance. Though sometimes I fall, I get right back up again to fight the good fight of faith!

Not exactly, which seems to be the purpose of your thread. In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who lost their salvation as you teach, then we have a contradiction because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14) *Also, in Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the CONTEXT, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, but who has committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and trampling under foot the work and the person of Christ himself. This gives evidence that his identification with the Hebrew Christian community of believers was superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion and is not without God's preservation. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)

That is not scripture. Good works prove faith.


good

The "repentance" we need to have is that we are sinners, in need of a Savior, and need to turn from the dead works of our flesh, thinking that those dead works do ANYTHING to save us. It is acknowledging to God that we are INDEED sinners and CAN'T do ANYTHING to save ourselves. If we could turn from committing sin BEFORE God saves us, and births us we wouldn't need Jesus.
Luke 5:32 New King James Version (NKJV)
32 I have NOT come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

The "righteous" here are those that think THEIR good works and obedience to the Law will save them.

The people in Hebrews 10 were saying "Yeah, Jesus is great, but I don't think He is sufficient to cover my sin, so i'm gonna go back to bringing MY sacrifices of bulls and goats to cover my sin!" A TRUE trampling on the Spirit of Grace, and the Blood of Christ.

You need to get that right, or be trapped into a works doctrine.

God gave us Passover to explain what Christ does for us, when we post the blood of Christ, God passes over our sins and we live. Without Christ we die.

The sacrifice for sin was what Christ did for us, that is THE sacrifice. The sacrifice of the lamb refers to that. By going to the beginning of the report of God working for us we can understand. The report of the whole of animal sacrifice gives us the understanding of Christ as God spent 4,000 years carefully to show us.

It can be compared to how a college grad does not "go back to" grammar school, a college grad uses the knowledge he received in grammar school to understand his college courses.

When we turn our sins over to Jesus we are cleared of those sins. We give our will over to Jesus and then live a life through Him. Paul tells us that even with our will turned to Jesus, we still sin, but it is not willful sin any more. That is what Jesus is to mean to us. If we willfully keep our sin and refuse to let Christ have it for forgiveness, it is impossible to will fully sin and have Jesus wipe that sin out of our life so God sees us as righteous.

The Bible must define the words its uses or we have no faith as a law that we could build on.

To repent is having the kind of life that would enable us to turn . Repentance is a work of God as in every case He our first love must do the first works in us, as Emmanuel with . .. You could say unaccustomed to the yoke of Christ giving us a new desire to do the will of another.

Jerimiah defines the work of God that works in us to both will and do His good pleasure . Again a person cannot repent without having life needed to turn And after he does the first work of turning us with our new faith we cant turn to Him and comfort/repent our own selves.

Using a Bullock to represent unbelief (no faith) that could come from hearing God as in natural man. it places Ephraim there also to represent unbelief. Possible why they are not listed in the tribes in Revelation 7. Sort of like why Dan is missing. Leaving 12 to represent the bride of Christ as residents of a heavenly City. The City of Christ. coming down on the last day prepared as his new wife.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

First things first.

It is what I believe was occurring in Revelation 2. They had left their first love "the hearing of faith" attributing it to Him who can give us life and ears to turn having no qualifiers previously .

Like that of Lazarus an example of the first resurrection. Jesus said Rise Lazarus. The Holy Spirit gave Lazarus a new creature ears to hear and a spirit to move Lazarus in that parable.( the gospel a picture of salvation )

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Revelation 2:4-5

Note from above. ….whence thou art fallen= their first love walking by faith in respect to a God not seen. Do the first works of God turning you so you could believe Him not seen .( repent)

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Their first love was not the ear of Nicole as he expounded . Nicole simply plants the seed or waters it with the doctrines of God. like any man and the Spirit of Christ who dwells in the believer gives us His understanding . Not in respect to what the eyes sees . the seed of the fall in the garden. Its bears thorns no fruit of the Spirit..

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:6-7

They were turning to the face of their leader Nicole. The warning was not to have a faith that comes by looking at the things seen the temporal. But rather turn to God as one who is not accustomed to . We are to have no familiarity with God not seen in that way ..Even the Son of man, Jesus when called good teacher gave glory to the father returning to His first love and perform the first works of the Spirit . Beleive God. You could say the food the disciples knew not of, as hidden manna revealed to those in who he does turn so that they can repent and comfort oneself.(repent)

Having received the KNOWLEDGE.; the operative word.
This is different than what John wrote in
John 1:12 to as many as received Him