Is this birth pains or later times?
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Revelation 9
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Joel 1
2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the Lord; the priests, the Lord's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
The Apocryphon of James
Translated by Francis E. Williams
Since you asked that I send you a secret book which was revealed to me and Peter by the Lord, I could not turn you away or gainsay (?) you; but I have written it in the Hebrew alphabet and sent it to you, and you alone. But since you are a minister of the salvation of the saints, endeavor earnestly and take care not to rehearse this text to many - this that the Savior did not wish to tell to all of us, his twelve disciples. But blessed will they be who will be saved through the faith of this discourse.
But I was writing that which was in my book - lo, the Savior appeared, after departing from us while we gazed after him. And five hundred and fifty days since he had risen from the dead, we said to him, "Have you departed and removed yourself from us?" But Jesus said, "No, but I shall go to the place from whence I came. If you wish to come with me, come!"
He said, "Verily I say unto you, no one will ever enter the kingdom of heaven at my bidding, but (only) because you yourselves are full. Leave James and Peter to me, that I may fill them." And having called these two, he drew them aside and bade the rest occupy themselves with that which they were about.
The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have become beloved through his providence by your own choice.
Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour.
Therefore, become seekers for death, like the dead who seek for life; for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to trouble them? As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit!"
"Come to hate hypocrisy and the evil thought; for it is the thought that gives birth to hypocrisy; but hypocrisy is far from truth."
"Do not allow the kingdom of heaven to wither; for it is like a palm shoot whose fruit has dropped down around it.
"Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life."
"Therefore, trust in me, my brethren; understand what the great light is. The Father has no need of me, - for a father does not need a son, but it is the son who needs the father - though I go to him. For the Father of the Son has no need of you."
"Hearken to the word, understand knowledge, love life, and no one will persecute you, nor will anyone oppress you, other than you yourselves."
"O you wretches; O you unfortunates; O you pretenders to the truth; O you falsifiers of knowledge; O you sinners against the Spirit: can you still bear to listen, when it behooved you to speak from the first? Can you still bear to sleep, when it behooved you to be awake from the first, so that the kingdom of heaven might receive you? Verily, I say unto you, had I been sent to those who listen to me, and had I spoken with them, I would never have come down to earth. So, then, be ashamed for these things."
"This is why I say unto you, 'For your sakes I came down.' You are the beloved; you are they who will be the cause of life in many. Invoke the Father, implore God often, and he will give to you."
"Keep his will, that you may be saved; accept reproof from me and save yourselves. I intercede on your behalf with the Father, and he will forgive you much."
And when we had heard these words, we became glad, for we had been grieved at the words we have mentioned before. But when he saw us rejoicing, he said, "Woe to you who lack an advocate! Woe to you who stand in need of grace! Blessed will they be who have spoken out and obtained grace for themselves."
Or do you perhaps think that the Father is a lover of mankind, or that he is won over without prayers, or that he grants remission to one on another's behalf, or that he bears with one who asks? - For he knows the desire, and also what it is that the flesh needs! - (Or do you think) that it is not this (flesh) that desires the soul? For without the soul, the body does not sin, just as the soul is not saved without the spirit. But if the soul is saved (when it is) without evil, and the spirit is also saved, then the body becomes free from sin. For it is the spirit that raises the soul, but the body that kills it; that is, it is it (the soul) which kills itself. Verily, I say unto you, he will not forgive the soul the sin by any means, nor the flesh the guilt; for none of those who have worn the flesh will be saved. For do you think that many have found the kingdom of heaven? Blessed is he who has seen himself as a fourth one in heaven!"
"And as long as I am with you, give heed to me, and obey me; but when I depart from you, remember me. And remember me because when I was with you, you did not know me. Blessed will they be who have known me; woe to those who have heard and have not believed! Blessed will they be who have not see, yet have believed!"
"Do not make the kingdom of heaven a desert within you. Do not be proud because of the light that illumines, but be to yourselves as I myself am to you. For your sakes I have placed myself under the curse, that you may be saved."
"Now again, I see you rejoicing many times; and when you are elated at the promise of life, are you yet sad, and do you grieve, when you are instructed in the kingdom? But you, through faith and knowledge, have received life. Therefore, disdain the rejection when you hear it, but when you hear the promise, rejoice the more. Verily, I say unto you, he who will receive life and believe in the kingdom will never leave it, not even if the Father wishes to banish him."
"But you, when I was eager to go, have cast me out, and instead of accompanying me, you have pursued me."
"But pay heed to the glory that awaits me, and, having opened your heart, listen to the hymns that await me up in the heavens; for today I must take (my place at) the right hand of the Father."
"But give heed; blessed are they who have proclaimed the Son before his descent, that when I have come, I might ascend (again). Thrice blessed are they who were proclaimed by the Son before they came to be, that you might have a portion among them."
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Joel 1
2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?
3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.
4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.
9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the Lord; the priests, the Lord's ministers, mourn.
10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.
The Apocryphon of James
Translated by Francis E. Williams
Since you asked that I send you a secret book which was revealed to me and Peter by the Lord, I could not turn you away or gainsay (?) you; but I have written it in the Hebrew alphabet and sent it to you, and you alone. But since you are a minister of the salvation of the saints, endeavor earnestly and take care not to rehearse this text to many - this that the Savior did not wish to tell to all of us, his twelve disciples. But blessed will they be who will be saved through the faith of this discourse.
But I was writing that which was in my book - lo, the Savior appeared, after departing from us while we gazed after him. And five hundred and fifty days since he had risen from the dead, we said to him, "Have you departed and removed yourself from us?" But Jesus said, "No, but I shall go to the place from whence I came. If you wish to come with me, come!"
He said, "Verily I say unto you, no one will ever enter the kingdom of heaven at my bidding, but (only) because you yourselves are full. Leave James and Peter to me, that I may fill them." And having called these two, he drew them aside and bade the rest occupy themselves with that which they were about.
The Lord answered and said, "What is your merit if you do the will of the Father and it is not given to you from him as a gift while you are tempted by Satan? But if you are oppressed by Satan, and persecuted, and you do his (i.e., the Father's) will, I say that he will love you, and make you equal with me, and reckon you to have become beloved through his providence by your own choice.
Do you dare to spare the flesh, you for whom the Spirit is an encircling wall? If you consider how long the world existed <before> you, and how long it will exist after you, you will find that your life is one single day, and your sufferings one single hour.
Therefore, become seekers for death, like the dead who seek for life; for that which they seek is revealed to them. And what is there to trouble them? As for you, when you examine death, it will teach you election. Verily, I say unto you, none of those who fear death will be saved; for the kingdom belongs to those who put themselves to death. Become better than I; make yourselves like the son of the Holy Spirit!"
"Come to hate hypocrisy and the evil thought; for it is the thought that gives birth to hypocrisy; but hypocrisy is far from truth."
"Do not allow the kingdom of heaven to wither; for it is like a palm shoot whose fruit has dropped down around it.
"Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life."
"Therefore, trust in me, my brethren; understand what the great light is. The Father has no need of me, - for a father does not need a son, but it is the son who needs the father - though I go to him. For the Father of the Son has no need of you."
"Hearken to the word, understand knowledge, love life, and no one will persecute you, nor will anyone oppress you, other than you yourselves."
"O you wretches; O you unfortunates; O you pretenders to the truth; O you falsifiers of knowledge; O you sinners against the Spirit: can you still bear to listen, when it behooved you to speak from the first? Can you still bear to sleep, when it behooved you to be awake from the first, so that the kingdom of heaven might receive you? Verily, I say unto you, had I been sent to those who listen to me, and had I spoken with them, I would never have come down to earth. So, then, be ashamed for these things."
"This is why I say unto you, 'For your sakes I came down.' You are the beloved; you are they who will be the cause of life in many. Invoke the Father, implore God often, and he will give to you."
"Keep his will, that you may be saved; accept reproof from me and save yourselves. I intercede on your behalf with the Father, and he will forgive you much."
And when we had heard these words, we became glad, for we had been grieved at the words we have mentioned before. But when he saw us rejoicing, he said, "Woe to you who lack an advocate! Woe to you who stand in need of grace! Blessed will they be who have spoken out and obtained grace for themselves."
Or do you perhaps think that the Father is a lover of mankind, or that he is won over without prayers, or that he grants remission to one on another's behalf, or that he bears with one who asks? - For he knows the desire, and also what it is that the flesh needs! - (Or do you think) that it is not this (flesh) that desires the soul? For without the soul, the body does not sin, just as the soul is not saved without the spirit. But if the soul is saved (when it is) without evil, and the spirit is also saved, then the body becomes free from sin. For it is the spirit that raises the soul, but the body that kills it; that is, it is it (the soul) which kills itself. Verily, I say unto you, he will not forgive the soul the sin by any means, nor the flesh the guilt; for none of those who have worn the flesh will be saved. For do you think that many have found the kingdom of heaven? Blessed is he who has seen himself as a fourth one in heaven!"
"And as long as I am with you, give heed to me, and obey me; but when I depart from you, remember me. And remember me because when I was with you, you did not know me. Blessed will they be who have known me; woe to those who have heard and have not believed! Blessed will they be who have not see, yet have believed!"
"Do not make the kingdom of heaven a desert within you. Do not be proud because of the light that illumines, but be to yourselves as I myself am to you. For your sakes I have placed myself under the curse, that you may be saved."
"Now again, I see you rejoicing many times; and when you are elated at the promise of life, are you yet sad, and do you grieve, when you are instructed in the kingdom? But you, through faith and knowledge, have received life. Therefore, disdain the rejection when you hear it, but when you hear the promise, rejoice the more. Verily, I say unto you, he who will receive life and believe in the kingdom will never leave it, not even if the Father wishes to banish him."
"But you, when I was eager to go, have cast me out, and instead of accompanying me, you have pursued me."
"But pay heed to the glory that awaits me, and, having opened your heart, listen to the hymns that await me up in the heavens; for today I must take (my place at) the right hand of the Father."
"But give heed; blessed are they who have proclaimed the Son before his descent, that when I have come, I might ascend (again). Thrice blessed are they who were proclaimed by the Son before they came to be, that you might have a portion among them."
This thinking smacks of the error of the JW group. They thought they were the 144,000 until their membership exceeded that number, then they had to change that aspect of their teaching.
It is certain there are millions of Jews who would be considered as unsaved. If you are Messianic you must have some knowledge of Hebrew. To know what ahudah translates as, fully into English, may help to understand just who Jews are. The actual meaning of Israel walso help in understanding just who makes up the people of our Maker. That is only if you are interested enough to researh it.
It is certain there are millions of Jews who would be considered as unsaved. If you are Messianic you must have some knowledge of Hebrew. To know what ahudah translates as, fully into English, may help to understand just who Jews are. The actual meaning of Israel walso help in understanding just who makes up the people of our Maker. That is only if you are interested enough to researh it.
I just posted in a different thread/convo, about "the beginning of birth pangs"...
https://christianchat.com/threads/a...chance-to-state-your-case.184571/post-3918316
I believe that Paul, in 2Th2, stated that "ONE THING" must take place *FIRST* before "the Day of the Lord" (with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to do, over the course of 7-yrs) can be "PRESENT" (and he repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in the passage [2Th2:3-9], which is the identical SEQUENCE that 1Th4-5 also had supplied). "The Day of the Lord" ARRIVES with the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]".
So my answer to the OP Q is that, no, "the beginning of birth pangs" have NOT YET arrived to unfold upon the earth. At my other post (at link) I show what the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" involves.
https://christianchat.com/threads/a...chance-to-state-your-case.184571/post-3918316
I believe that Paul, in 2Th2, stated that "ONE THING" must take place *FIRST* before "the Day of the Lord" (with its "man of sin" and ALL he is slated to do, over the course of 7-yrs) can be "PRESENT" (and he repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in the passage [2Th2:3-9], which is the identical SEQUENCE that 1Th4-5 also had supplied). "The Day of the Lord" ARRIVES with the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"]".
So my answer to the OP Q is that, no, "the beginning of birth pangs" have NOT YET arrived to unfold upon the earth. At my other post (at link) I show what the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" involves.
The grammar is pretty much corrct in my post and the words too. There is a finite number, 144,000, cited. There are many more than 144,000 Jews today who, judging without good judgment but by appearances, are not saved.
You mention it would please you if it were tru the 144,000 would be comprised of unsved Jews.
You mention it would please you if it were tru the 144,000 would be comprised of unsved Jews.
There is an estimated 350,000 Messianics' today.... who knows what time the chosen came from.... Peter preached and 3,000 of us got saved.
The amount of SAVED outnumbers the chosen... HOW GREAT IS THAT.... Who do you and other think the chosen are?
You did not answer my question. If you do not want to I respect that... I have questioned it for a long time that is all....
I do not speculate on the Word of God, not when it is dealing with His plans for our future.
I cn tell you this, those 144,000 are virgins becaue the Word says it is so. Now, this too could be allegory, as the finite nuimber could be allegory.
As for chosen, are not all who are saved chosen to be with Elohanue in the Kingdom? Is not Yeshua Melech l'yahudim?
I cn tell you this, those 144,000 are virgins becaue the Word says it is so. Now, this too could be allegory, as the finite nuimber could be allegory.
As for chosen, are not all who are saved chosen to be with Elohanue in the Kingdom? Is not Yeshua Melech l'yahudim?
The 144,000 were of the 12 tribes of Israel; they were male and virgins! It is a actual number that is symbolic of the fullness of Old covenant Israel, (OCI)! Not the fulness of New covenant Israel.
These were the firstborn of OCI, unto the resurrection of the Dead, (Rr of the Dd). This was their salvation as the son's of God in Adam, looking forward to Messiah, or Christ Jesus!
This is why there was such a thing as a Levirite Law in case a man died without being forth a first born son unto the Rr of the Dd! This was so important to God!! Why??! This has nothing to do with anyone today, it was for the salvation of the faithful of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Jesus. OCI's Messiah had to die and descend into Sheol to seal these 144,000. These firstborn were virgins at birth and set apart to God in Adam ie the Adamic covenant looking forward to Messiah!
This is the first and most important thing that had to be done after Jesus death on the cross! There is no more Old covenant Israel they were sealed in Sheol in Abt 30ad! There are no more Jew or gentile, which part of this do you not understand???
Dispensationalism and modern Zionism has robbed many of these truths and simple teach a gospel that is false!
I'm trying to stay focused on the 144000, that you can see they were sealed in 30ad. They have been Risen or judged, there is neither faithful or unfaithful still in Sheol; nor do they exist anymore upon the earth!
This is God keeping His promise to Abraham and those in Sheol in 'Abraham's Bossom'! God did not seal His faithful and leave them in the devil's care for another 2000 yrs!! Come on!!
These faithful were in the grave because their bodies were corrupted, but after Jesus resurrection many were seen in Jerusalem. To prove to their families of the soon coming of the resurrection of the dead!
Anyhow, the 144000 only make sense if you understand the Old Testament and the first born unto the Rr of the Dd.
Peace in Christ 🔥
These were the firstborn of OCI, unto the resurrection of the Dead, (Rr of the Dd). This was their salvation as the son's of God in Adam, looking forward to Messiah, or Christ Jesus!
This is why there was such a thing as a Levirite Law in case a man died without being forth a first born son unto the Rr of the Dd! This was so important to God!! Why??! This has nothing to do with anyone today, it was for the salvation of the faithful of the 12 tribes of Israel.
Jesus. OCI's Messiah had to die and descend into Sheol to seal these 144,000. These firstborn were virgins at birth and set apart to God in Adam ie the Adamic covenant looking forward to Messiah!
This is the first and most important thing that had to be done after Jesus death on the cross! There is no more Old covenant Israel they were sealed in Sheol in Abt 30ad! There are no more Jew or gentile, which part of this do you not understand???
Dispensationalism and modern Zionism has robbed many of these truths and simple teach a gospel that is false!
I'm trying to stay focused on the 144000, that you can see they were sealed in 30ad. They have been Risen or judged, there is neither faithful or unfaithful still in Sheol; nor do they exist anymore upon the earth!
This is God keeping His promise to Abraham and those in Sheol in 'Abraham's Bossom'! God did not seal His faithful and leave them in the devil's care for another 2000 yrs!! Come on!!
These faithful were in the grave because their bodies were corrupted, but after Jesus resurrection many were seen in Jerusalem. To prove to their families of the soon coming of the resurrection of the dead!
Anyhow, the 144000 only make sense if you understand the Old Testament and the first born unto the Rr of the Dd.
Peace in Christ 🔥