144,000 all tribes, 24 elders

Daniel's prophecy was fulfilled long ago when Messiah came and went, and the second temple was destroyed by Titus.

If its still future, then the people living in israel ought to know what tribe they are in...do they really know or is it they are all from the tribe of Judah, with the current state, being over 80 percent Jewish. As far as I know they havent apportioned the land out to the different tribes like how they were meant to. But then I don't live there so, I wouldnt know if they have done this or not.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, being born in Judea. But I dont know if the Israelis now being born into the land have divide it up or choose where they live, or if they remember all their geneaology, after they had been exiled. Wouldnt it go by their last name. I've known people with the surname Asher, and Levi, but havent really come across any of the other names. I've heard some tribes were lost, the lost 10 tribes of Israel, the other two tribes stayed in the land and these were Judah and Benjamin.

Lanolin,

You're asking great questions and I bet @Ahwatukee or @dcontroversal can give you the historical information that you are asking for.......

Be patient, they will answer you...... we will all learn together.....

But Revelation is highly spiritual and symbolic language representing real history concerning the Church and the Jews (Judah).
As for your interpretations on Revelation I find them to be highly speculative and incorrect.

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

If its still future, then the people living in israel ought to know what tribe they are in...do they really know or is it they are all from the tribe of Judah, with the current state, being over 80 percent Jewish. As far as I know they haven't apportioned the land out to the different tribes like how they were meant to. But then I don't live there so, I wouldn't know if they have done this or not.

Jesus was from the tribe of Judah, being born in Judea. But I dont know if the Israelis now being born into the land have divide it up or choose where they live, or if they remember all their genealogy, after they had been exiled. Wouldn't it go by their last name. I've known people with the surname Asher, and Levi, but haven't really come across any of the other names. I've heard some tribes were lost, the lost 10 tribes of Israel, the other two tribes stayed in the land and these were Judah and Benjamin.

Ok. Well I was just reading a book, about the nation of Israel. Its now 70 years old since it became a nation in 1948.
The interesting thing is, all the people that made aliyah back there all had to learn how to speak Hebrew. The ones born there now are called sabras which is a a prickly kind of fruit thats juicy inside.

Every israelite needs to serve in the IDF...the israeli defence force. Its the one unifiying thing. And they all need to study the Bible as partvof their education. I dont know if that includes the NT.

Israel continued to exist within the reduced territory as an independent kingdom subject to Assyria until around 725–720 BCE, when it was again invaded by Assyria and the rest of the population deported. The Bible relates that the population of Israel was exiled, leaving only the Tribe of Judah, the Tribe of Simeon (that was "absorbed" into Judah), the Tribe of Benjamin, and the people of the Tribe of Levi who lived among them of the original Israelite tribes in the southern Kingdom of Judah.

There is still tension there because of the arabs still living there before it became Israel when it was palestine. The arabs dont really belong cos they speak arabic not Hebrew and dont identify as Jewish. They are exempt from serving in the IDF. Arab christians arent treated particularly well, and they are kind of second class citizens. The other arab nations wont allow them to refugee into their countries, so they are kind of stuck.

The arabs, if traced back, are descendants of Esau, and the Israelites. Are descendants of Jacob. If I recall correctly. Jacob 'stole' the firstborn blessing from Esau, who actually didnt value it.

I am just trying to make sense of whats going on here. The promised land of Canaan is actually very tiny in area compared to the vast lands surrounding it, which belong to arab nations. Its meant to be a land of milk and honey...it has hills and valleys. Why is this precious land so important? If there has to be one place thats the centre of all of the earth, why has God made it Jerusalem?

Why does the lamb stand on. mount zion? Will there really be 144,000 believers in the land when Jesus returns. After all that is the place that its said he will stand.

In revelation 2 Jesus says twice to the seven churches that there will be people that lie and say they are jews when they are not. He says they are of the synagogue of satan. Rev 2:13 talks about satan having a seat. Where is satan's seat? Pergamos?

Here Lafftur....My view........and very plausible.......won't argue....after 30 years this is my conclusion.......

Hey Gang.......Much has been proposed about the 144,000 in the book of Revelation which contains past, present and future context....even the False Jehovah's Non-Witnessses jumped on board with their take, as well as numerous other groups.....my view is listed below...this came up in another thread and I wanted to put it out for all to examine. I am not here to argue these point....After a very diligent look into the facts listed about the 144,000 I have come to the following conclusion.

First note the facts about the 144,000

Locations identified with
144,000 standing on MOUNT ZION with their FATHER'S seal on their foreheads
They are SINGING a SONG BEFORE the THRONE, BEFORE the 4 beasts and the elders
THEY follow the LAMB where ever he GOES
They are without fault before the throne

They have been redeemed
FROM the EARTH
FROM among MEN

They are a special unique group
ONLY they can learn the song they sing

They are faultless boys who have not had sex
They have not been defiled with women
They are virgins
They have no guile/deceit in their mouths

They are called the same word Christ is called
Being the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

What group in history can fit this group....the boys murdered by HEROD in the place of Christ

a. They are a unique group
b. They were boys
c. They were virgins
d. They have never been defiled with women
e. They have told no lies or used deceit or guile
f. They were alive <--redeemed from among men
g. They were dead <--redeemed from the earth (ground)
h. They are located before the throne, before the 4 beasts, before the elders and the follow the lamb where ever he goes (all in heaven)
I. Identified as the FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD and the LAMB

My view....they are the train of the Lord and represent the wave offering given by JESUS along with himself before the throne.

144,000 perfect, unblemished Jewish martyred males in the place of JESUS <---the cream of the "wheat" crop if there ever was one.

This is a very good view, imo.

The only thing that doesn't make it perfect, in my own head, is the perfect numbers of 12,000 for each tribe with a total of exactly 144,000.

That nagging detail makes me think that there are more involved than "just" the ones Herod killed. Possibly some before and some after, in time. But along the same lines of your description. The elect of God.

The story assumed an important place in later Christian tradition; Byzantine liturgy estimated 14,000 Holy Innocents while an early Syrian list of saints stated the number at 64,000. Coptic sources raise the number to 144,000 and place the event on 29 December.[1] Taking the narrative literally and judging from the estimated population of Bethlehem, the Catholic Encyclopedia (1907–12) more soberly suggested that these numbers were inflated, and that probably only between six and twenty children were killed in the town, with a dozen or so more in the surrounding areas.[2]

1. E. Porcher, ed. and tr., Histoire d'Isaac, patriarche Jacobite d'Alexandrie de 686 à 689, écrite par Mina, évêque de Pchati, volume 11. 1915. Texts in Arabic, Greek and Syriac, p. 526.
2. ^ Holy Innocents in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "The Greek Liturgy asserts that Herod killed 14,000 boys (ton hagion id chiliadon Nepion), the Syrians speak of 64,000, many medieval authors of 144,000, according to Apocalypse 14:3. Writers who accept the historicity of the episode reduce the number considerably, since Bethlehem was a rather small town. Joseph Knabenbauer brings it down to fifteen or twenty (Evang. S. Matt., I, 104), August Bisping to ten or twelve (Evang. S. Matt.), Lorenz Kellner to about six (Christus und seine Apostel, Freiburg, 1908); cf. "Anzeiger kath. Geistlichk. Deutschl.", 15 Febr., 1909, p. 32."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

Coptic sources and it appears many medieval authors do as similar to dcon.

You are looking at babies and little children, only 30 in number, being inflated to 144,000
And why would random jewish children be this group?

Even though the number may still fall short of 144,000, it wasn't just in Bethlehem that Herod slew children, but in the surrounding area, as well.

Some things in the book of revelation are hard to understand. So I thought I would ask here.

Am wondering whether the tribes listed in revelation 7 and again mentioned in revelation 14 are all the old testament saints? Or are they particular group at the time of Jesus. Or...are they an end-times group.
And who would the 24 elders be...would they be all the godly elders before Israel, like Isaac, Abraham, Noah, Enoch...?

What are your thoughts and what does scripture say about who these people are, as they arent really named. All I know is there's 12,000 sealed from each tribe. What is the seal of the living God? Are these seals the same as the seven seals the lamb opens? Who are the first fruits?

Amen........All of Judea and the coasts thereof.....with the number of the JEWS being in the Millions (as evidenced by how many were killed in the Roman siege) I have no problem in arriving at 12,000 boys under the age of two from each tribe

I would offer. The gospel represented by 144,000 (chaste virgin bride) has nothing to with the flesh of men from any nation, any age, any gender . We walk by faith, the unseen eternal not by sight after the things seen the temporal .

This is a very good view, imo.

The only thing that doesn't make it perfect, in my own head, is the perfect numbers of 12,000 for each tribe with a total of exactly 144,000.

That nagging detail makes me think that there are more involved than "just" the ones Herod killed. Possibly some before and some after, in time. But along the same lines of your description. The elect of God.

Greetings Grandpa,

Regarding the person who suggested that the 144,000 as being those children whom Herod killed, (if that is what they are claiming) I would ask, how are they linking the two? For there is no scripture that supports this. To claim this would simply be to apply it without any scripture to back it up.

The 144,000 is a future group which will come out of the woman, i.e. unbelieving Israel, as those who will be in their mortal bodies and will acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah and who will be sealed during the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation period.