What changed???

This is not about pre- trib, post -trib no trib but I would like very much if one or more can answer this question.

According to the writings of Paul..... absent from the body is presence with the Lord.......we are not subject to wrath..... In a twinkling of a eye we will be changed

Jesus said that where he goes we may be with him also. ......he also said....he in the beginning and the end.

We know and hope that when we pass we shall enter glory with our Lord. We shall see him face to face praise God. Our salvation is secured in Christ Jesus. A salvation that is given as a gift from God not earned. We take comfort in knowing this and rest in his promise to us.
Now there's been many debates on end time in this forum. Some saints say they will not suffer the tribulations but be caught up. Some say they will go through the trib and be rescued. Some say there is no trib that it's a false doctrine.
We all agree (or at least we should be in agreement) that Jesus took our punishment upon himself at Calvary for our sins known and unknown.
That because of Jesus we are sanctified and justified by his love and blood. That we are complete in Christ.

So my question to you is if you believe that we must suffer the wrath of God which is poured upon a wicked and unbelieving people then what changed? Is the promise to Abraham from the Lord to spare the just null and void to the gentiles? Was Enoch a Jew? As Noah was given grace by the Lord is it a different grace we are given? Did Noah and his family escape because of the ark or because they listened to the Lord's direction.
If we are not spared that which is stored up for the wicked then what's changed???

God has to end this sin business on earth one day, so He is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom in Revelation 13, and when they take the mark of the beast then repentance, and salvation, are no longer available to the world, and God will put them down.

The mark of the beast has to do with technology, a GPS tracking device linked to satellite for humans.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, for repentance, and salvation, are still available to the world for the first three and one half years, so God has not given up on the world yet, and the seals, and trumpets, is not the wrath of God.

After the beast addresses the world he has power to continue for three and one half years, which can only come from God, and has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

So how can the wrath of God be in the 7 years period if the world still can be saved during the first three and one half years, and the beast has power from God to rule over the world for the last three and one half years.

The wrath of God does not happen until after the 7 years period.

And the tribulation is for the saints, not the world, and occurs at the last half.

There is only 2 resurrections, one of the saints, and one of the world 1000 years later.

There is no pre-7 years resurrection because repentance, and salvation, are still available for the first half, so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth while they still have a chance to be saved.

And the last half the beast makes war against the saints, and prevails against them, and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he scatters their power them all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

Paul said that the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period, and that is because the resurrection will not happen until the world takes the mark of the beast, and repentance, and salvation, is not available to them anymore.

Also Jesus said anyone that does not get caught up in the first resurrection has to go to the second resurrection, and the hypocrites will not be resurrected, and once Jesus shuts the door then they lost the chance to be saved.

Which means there would be no Gentile that can be saved after the resurrection happens, so of it is pre-7 years resurrection then the world would have no chance to be saved after that, but they can still be saved during the first three and one half years.

Also when the beast scatters the power of the holy people then all things are finished, and then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, when He has put down all rule, authority, and power, the operational government, and rulership of people over other people.

So as soon as the resurrection happens God is right on them pronto to put them down, their government, and rulership, no playing around, and His wrath upon them that will not last that long, before He fights the world at the battle of Armageddon.

But if the resurrection happens pre-7 years period God is not right on them, but they still continue for 7 years, and the beast has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

When the resurrection happens God is right on them pronto, for there is no need to play around with them, for after the resurrection nobody can be saved, but have to go to the second resurrection, concerning the Gentiles.

Why would the wrath of God be for a whole 7 years, for He is not a sadist, and is not like a child with a magnifying glass burning a bug by the rays of the sun, for God does not play around when He judges them, and puts them down.

For did He play with Sodom and Gomorrah, but He went against them big time, and got it over quick.

Will Jesus play around after the 7 years period is over, and He fights the world, but He will put them down quick.

God is not going to put wrath upon them for 7 years, and once the resurrection happens why would God allow them to continue on earth, and having their way for it does no good, and no purpose for it.

Once the resurrection happens Jesus will right away put them down, and not play around with them, which is why the resurrection is after the 7 years period, for God is allowing them 7 years to have their way, which the devil can influence the wicked more than he could in the past which is why they are deceived, a strong delusion they cannot snap out of for they did not love the truth.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, and the resurrection is not before the 7 years period.

Also when the nations come together and say Peace and safety that is when the 7 years period begins, but Paul said the saints will be on earth when it starts, and they will not be deceived by it knowing it is not of God, and the new age movement is not truth, and reality, as they try to convince the world that the correct interpretation of the Bible is based on the occult, and evolution, and Jesus is a good teacher, and an ascended master, but not Lord and Savior, and honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power.

Which when the 7 years period starts it will be the time that the world will want to endure what has been taught about the Bible for thousands of years, but want to hear it according to the new age movement, their lusts, power through nature.

But the Bible says preach the word in season, and out of season, for the time will come they will not want to hear the truth, but when that happens the 7 years period has started, so the saints would have to be on earth to still preach the truth, and Paul is directing it to the saints that are not yet in the 7 years period, that when they get to that time keep on preaching, and preach hard to get through to them, for salvation is still available to the world during the first three and one half years.

And also what does change with us when we are caught up in the twinkling of an eye is receiving our glorified body.

And those that died in the Lord, are with Him, for there is no need for them to visit the underworld like the Old Testament saints, for they are saved.

What changed was the dispensation of grace for the Gentiles, after the Jews made their final rejection of by stoning Stephen.

Originally, the Gentiles were to be reached only after all the Jews acknowledge Jesus as their promised Messiah. But because the Jews made that final rejection, God decided in his Grace to save the Gentiles independent of what the Jews do.

The story of Joseph in Genesis illustrated this well. Because the Jewish brothers rejected Joseph, an example of Jesus, all the Egyptians benefited from having bread during the famine, compared to the Jews. Joseph even had an Egyptian wife, which represents the Gentile Church. We are therefore spared from wrath, the Tribulation.

But Joseph will reveal himself to his brothers in their second coming, so likewise, after the Tribulation, Jesus shall come back for the Jews, and they will all accept him. Romans 9 to 11 have all the details.

Some say we have to go through the wrath which is to come. Why do you say we are spared?

Simple, the apostle paul told the gentile church she is spared from the coming wrath in 1 Thess 1:10

This is an all to often projected position put forward by pre-tribulation believers who project this positon upon post tribulation believers.... And is is NOT the positon of most post tribulation people... So either pre-tribulation believers have some kind of mental block which causes them to be unable to read the positon of post trib believers on the issue.. Or they wilfully ignore the actual stated positon of post tribulation believers and are dishonestly pasting a positon on them simply to create a strawman that they can then burn..

So now Again for the actual positon of a post tribulation believer... My belief..

1) We as Christians are not subject to the wrath of God........

1 Thessalonians 5: KJV
9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

I will state it again in the hope that pre-tribulation believers will read this statement again and maybe they will be able to absorb it..

2) We as Christians are not subject to the wrath of God........

1 Thessalonians 5: KJV
9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

3) We Christians ARE subject to tribulation.. tribulations of living in a faulty fallen world and tribulation that comes from people who are enemies of Christ.. As Jesus said... And if you are a follower of Jesus you will believe the next verse is truth::

John 16: KJV
33 "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

4) Christiasn in the end times will be subjected to tribulation when they will be persecuted by unbelievers for their faithfullness to the Gospel...

5) Unbelievers in the end times who tribulate the saints will face the avenging wrath of the LORD...

6) God is well able to keep His people from suffering from the wrath he pours out onto unbelievers.. God kept Noah from the suffering of the great flood, without needing to rapture him and his family out of this world..

7) I believe God will send angels in the end times to protect the remnant of Saints that will be kept alive so as to bear witness to the wrath of God being poured out upon the unbelievers. I believe this Psalm is speaking of these end times Saints::

Psalms 91: KJV
1 "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. {2} I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. {3} Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. {4} He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

So in conclusion, as a post trib rapture believer i do not believe Saints are subject to the wrath of God.. We are however subject to persecution/ tribulation which Saints have faced from enemies of Jesus since the earliest days of the church.. Our brothers in Christ have been persecuted and killed and burnt at the stake and beheaded and tortured by followers of satan since the days of the first Apostles and today Christians are still being killed because of their faith in Jesus.. That's the tribulation we are subjected to and shall be subjected to till the Day of the LORD..

Why does anyone who claims the faith of our Savior have a need to believe he or she is above suffering along with Jesus.? It is a fooliosj amd damgerpis influence on any who may not be already established on the Rock.

People have misunderstood the great tribulation, we are in the great tribulation now, we have been since the 1st century. All the church era is also the great tribulation era, only the suffering is increasingly becoming severe with time. But the great tribulation is nothing more than death through; sword (wars)/ famine (Natural disasters)/ beasts of the earth (accidents & animals)/ pestilence (diseases). It is referred to as GT because the antichrist is in the scene and the one who dies during this period not knowing God is doomed forever- this is why i is called the great tribulation.

All of us are in it, the church is deep in it.

Teaching/s/scriptual interpretation/s changed! And quite dramatically, at that!
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Even I myself, do not fancy myself to be so "blameless" as to escape "tribulation!"

I also do not subscribe, nor endorse this:
2 Timothy 2
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is IN Christ Jesus.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, BUT to the subverting of the hearers.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Meaning? We should ALL "relish" going THROUGH the "tribulation!"
And NOT the thinking of oneself/themselves, to a higher degree then ought to be thought, taught, preached, and perpetuated.

What happens with this whole "rapture nonsense", is that people are "taught", led into the deceiving themselves to be "exempt" from tribulation, and perpetuate this by "cherry picking" through the Holy Scriptures, in (falsely) JUSTIFYING this "EXEMPT status!"

So? When that happens?
THIS happens!
2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Moral of the story? STOP "cherry picking!" Take in ALL the "Word of God!" "Soak it up like a sponge!"

If you BELIEVE Jesus? Believe ALSO, IN HIM WHO "SENT" Jesus!

IOW? Keep DILIGENTLY SEEKING! NOT "diligently JUSTIFYING!"

THIS! Is WHAT CHANGED!

Just to be clear Jesus did not suffer the wrath of God for himself ....he suffered it for us.

We suffer for the gospels sake we do not suffer the wrath of God. Jesus took that out of the equation. This is why the debates have gone on as they have. I am not about post trib pre trib no trib as I have stated. This is not about the book of revelation. It's about the truth.
Jesus uses the term saved...then I ask ....saved from what? Saved from the destruction that will come.
I used the scripture ...Jesus is the beginning and the end. I ask what end Lord since you are eternal? In fact you had no beginning you always were. So what is meant by this? To my understanding which could be way off he is talking about a time frame.
Ask yourself why if you are justified, sanctified, and are a child of God not under the law full of the holy spirit, saved by grace that you would have to suffer that which is stored up for the wicked.
Jesus suffered for our sake....we suffer for the gospel sake. Again the scriptures tells us God does not tempt with evil. Would you not agree that the trib is described as a time of desperation and evil?
Regardless of how you view lot he was spared out of sodom. By grace Noah and his family . By walking in fellowship Enoch was spared.
How these examples of lot and Noah and Enoch properly fit the Christian Life. Let's look at them.

Lot.....a knock comes to his door of the three witnesses....he opens and invites them in......Jesus said I stand at the door and knock.
Noah....but Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord.....Paul says that we are saved by grace.
Enoch....he walked with the Lord.....scripture tells us if we walk in the light as he is in the light....

All these examples are given and many more.....so what has changed?
Paul starts this finding of scripture fact that he could not avoid and discribes it as a mystery.....yet he gives us his findings and concludes that something huge is going to take place for the believers in the end times.

God is eternal, God's word is the same from Genesis to Revelation. We are not to have a belief that Christ changed God or His word in any way. Christ was in the beginning, grace was in the beginning, God's plan for our salvation and payment for our sins was in the beginning and none of that changed at all.

When we give God characteristics that is poking and cherry picking with scripture so we distort the truth we are constructing a false God as true as the false Gods made of stone.

What changed was that using fleshly instruction like cutting of flesh to complete the law of circumcision and having what we eat complete the law of keeping pure was taken away. These were to be used to guide us to the law they were never the law in themselves. The Holy Spirit guides us to the spirit of the law and that spirit guides us in our actions in response to the law.

Christ was a change only in that Christ completed and made perfect the eternal and ongoing plan of God for our salvation. Blood was always required, God's grace was always required, but Christ made it perfect. Before saints slept at death, now saints live on through Christ.

The wrath of the Lord that is and is coming is the worlds doing. Hitler types of rulers are coming and is with us. Saints who live in places where governments act out God's wrath have to endure what they bring on. People who distort the Lord by saying God changed are helping to bring on the wrath.

Many confuse wrath and tribulation. We are not subject to wrath, but certainly will suffer tribulation.
Saints have suffered tribulation since the beginning, some more than others.

When is the wrath of God announced from Heaven?
It is not Rev. 6:12-17 as some insist.
Notice who is speaking in Rev.6:12-17. It is wicked, evil, unsaved men.
Rev. 11:15-19 announces from Heaven that His wrath is come.

Don't confuse the judgment of God in the seals and trumps with His wrath.
There will be saints suffering tribulation, even death at the hand of the anti-Christ.
Why do so many seem to think that they are so righteous that they will escape the coming tribulation while Scripture clearly teaches that many saints will suffer and die at the hands of the anti-Christ.

Where does it say that saints will die by anti-christ?

Rev.12:17 ( the saints have the testimony of Jesus Christ), Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 20:4, Daniel 7:21 &25,

So you think these saints are from the trib???

If you look at the context, it seems obvious to me.
Where would you place them?

There is no change.

We only suffer because we live in an evil world. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. We are protected when we listen to warning to get of the way of what evil caused the suffering, we are protected because death does not have its sting as it does for those no one of God's children, but if we are standing within the site of the calamity we must share in it.

Nice I am glad that there are at least 2 passages that talks about the Church being spared from the Tribulation because they will be raptured before that.

1 Thess 1:10
1 Thess 5:9

It fulfills what Paul said about the establishing of church doctrine. 2 Cor 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Those two passages speak of the wrath but not of the coming tribulation.
Tribulation and wrath are not the same.