Not By Works

Yea but it's never the person that bears fruit anyway, only God through that person, and again I have to point to the testimony of the new believer as "insta fruit" as you call it, really it's more like seed/water slinging, because again it's God that gives all growth, not only that, but the actual testimony of the change in your personal behavior to those closest to you is CRAZY powerful. In my case I had a wife that had been praying for me years, we had been together since high school and she knows me better than anyone on this earth and vice versa, but she saw me go from death to life, overnight. God blessed her with the answer to her prayers by seeing the person she knew best in the world, completely broken by the world, then picked up and made new by the Creator and Savior she knew. God can bear powerful fruit from us on day 1.

I don't think he is actually saying what you think he is about the overall concept. It's not you are saved and now have a list of fruit you HAVE to produce, a burden put on you, no he is saying that BECAUSE you are saved you by nature now will "AS A RESULT OF" salvation, produce fruit and it starts day one. It did for me brother, I can testify of this truth. Again I think a LOT of this is just bad blood between brothers at this point, and their should be no bad blood between any of us. Somebody is going to have humble themselves and forgive the other unconditionally and with no expectation, ready for any kind of response, this is necessary to ever come out of your stronghold and actually talk to the other person, as well as listen and try to understand them. Anytime I've done this, save 1, has resulted in some kind of understanding.

Come on guys (all of us), Jesus is ALL of our Savior, and He commands us to be known to this world by our love for one another, and I just truly think we can do better than this. In Jesus name I believe we can do better than this, and as ALWAYS I mean myself 1st and foremost. I speak peace over all here on Christian Chat and trust God to start aiming the conversations more towards Him and what we share and love about one another rather than only tribal and solo warfare. Most of all let us lift the name of Jesus together no matter what.

Thank you Jesus.

Melach.

I love your spirit.
I have said it before and will say it again.
You have a heart that seeks.
That is a heart that God can work in.

I also say that when settled on a doctrine or an understanding after study and conviction then stay with it.

Always be willing to discuss and never be nasty and personal.

Some here are more open and some are very subtle about how they go about their business. They attack the person subtly.

Some attack doctrine but not the person, yet this is taken as an attack personally.
But at times labeling a person does not help.

I'm not saying you are, I know that from your posts.
I see a genuine, gentle humble person.
Quick to apologise, quick to seek understanding that is different from yours.

There are a few on this thread that I love dearly and would be happy to walk into heaven with.

Yet we react differently to people.
They react in a way I would not and me the same.

And to be honest I have stopped responding to some because there is no point.

Not many on my list.

Hi EG,

I see what you are saying with Fran and Peter.

With regards to MAC to be honest I'm struggling to see what others see with regards to doctrine.

From what I have read from his posts I can't see that he disagrees with eternal security due to lack of works or fruit.

One of his posts concerning sin was that it's forgiven at the cross and that confession is like footwashing, relational as such.

That's where I am concerning Mac.

How can we be better than this?

Really? You have no clue what on earth what I could possibly mean by this? To be honest it's kind of scary if you can't possibly fathom a better way for Christians to treat each other than this splitting into camps and setting up and attacking straw men day after day after day. You want to know how? By shutting our mouths and actually listening to the other side. By being okay if someone doesn't believe just like you and trusting God to lead us all to truth. How? Being more like Jesus brother. I'm kind of thrown off by your question. Are you suggesting the way some here are speaking to each other is a good thing and representing Jesus well?

Thanks for your kind response.

I totally agree with what you have said above.
It's a no brainer.

So as you said "We must be better than this" Loving each other.

That's why I asked "How can we better than this?

But you decide to attack instead.

Was your response being like Jesus?

If you want my opinion we can be better than this.
Loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us.

As I said I totally agree with what you say.
But alas

I know that.

Matthew 5:43-48

Love Your Enemies
(Luke 6:27, 28, 32–36)
43 “You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Hey bro, I will be honest. I have no idea what Mac believes. Thats not my beef with him (or peter or fran)

My beef is their attitude, their nitpicking, their attacking people. Their demanding, Their refusal to see their own sin, but having no problem spending days expoasing someone elses sin. Their slandering others, and refusing to admit it, Their continued blame shifting when they are exposed. Their hypocrisy.

I have many friends who do not believe in eternal security. That is not my beef at all.

That I agree with.

Love them to me is forgiving them but doesn't mean that you can enable them to carry on.

what does propitiation mean?

i notice the greek word hilastérion can mean many things:

mercy-seat or sin-offering/ propitiation.

Hi Magenta...
I love your post , but because of my bad eye sight , I find some off them hard to read because it is light writing and fancy style , which makes it harder to read...
Just a little moan from a poor sighted sister ...xox...

I do not call people wicked. I have quoted psalm 36

1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
3 The words of his mouth are wicked and deceitful; he has ceased to be wise and to do good.
4 Even on his bed he plots evil; he commits himself to a sinful course and does not reject what is wrong.
5 Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
6 Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep. O LORD, you preserve both man and beast.
7 How priceless is your unfailing love! Both high and low among men find refuge in the shadow of your wings.
8 They feast on the abundance of your house; you give them drink from your river of delights.
9 For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light.
10 Continue your love to those who know you, your righteousness to the upright in heart.
11 May the foot of the proud not come against me, nor the hand of the wicked drive me away.
12 See how the evildoers lie fallen- thrown down, not able to rise!
Psalm 36

Where any of us sit in regard to this is between us and God.
I have said our goal is to walk like Jesus, not that we have achieved this or
will achieve it. This is a critical point, our desire is our life, our communion
with Christ is in this communion.

I am glad you agree the sermon on the mount is Jesus speaking to us.
Not all here agree with you, but amen.

And my enthusiasm regarding our walk is reading what Paul says about us
and his ambition for the the disciples he had led to the Lord.

Praise the Lord He gives us His Spirit to enable all things to become possible.
Amen

"this is a wicked lie about salvation."

1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
1 Cor 11

We are called to follow the example of Christ, pure and simple.
It is not a wicked lie.

And salvation is founded on our faith in Christ, not our walk.
Our walk in evil will destroy our faith. It is really this simple, but
then those for whom love is a distant experience they do not really
understand, I can see why this is all so difficult. God bless you

Strange people find on a public forum discussions are so difficult.
Praise the Lord that He knows the ways of love and grace.

But maybe hearing Gods word and His grace in action is too much for some.

16 To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life.
2 Cor 2

To propitiate means to satisfy Gods wrath.

The cross satisfied Gods judgment on mankind, And frees God to allow those who recieve his gift to be freed from the penalty of sin

If our sin was not propitiated, we would all be looking forward to experiencing Gods wrath ourselves.