An NASB Boo Boo?

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crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#1
Nov 24, 2012
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#1
I'm not a KJV only person but it looks like here the NASB clearly has a contradiction whereas the KJV skates clean on this one.
Compare 'or' and 'and' (in bold) between these two passages...

Revelation 13:16 NASB
[16] And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Revelation 20:4 NASB
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now the KJV...

Revelation 13:16 KJV
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the inimitable words of Ricky to Lucy, "You got some 'splainin' to do.
And the NASB (Critical Text) has some explaining to do as well with this logical contradiction in their translation.
So which is it? Hand and forehead OR hand or forehead ..it can't be both.

KJV makes it clear it is either the hand or the forehead but not both.

I know it's late and maybe I'm just seeing things.
 
JohnRH

JohnRH

Junior Member
#2
Mar 5, 2018
672
321
63
#2
crossnote said:
I'm not a KJV only person but it looks like here the NASB clearly has a contradiction whereas the KJV skates clean on this one.
Compare 'or' and 'and' (in bold) between these two passages...

Revelation 13:16 NASB
[16] And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Revelation 20:4 NASB
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now the KJV...

Revelation 13:16 KJV
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the inimitable words of Ricky to Lucy, "You got some 'splainin' to do.
And the NASB (Critical Text) has some explaining to do as well with this logical contradiction in their translation.
So which is it? Hand and forehead OR hand or forehead ..it can't be both.

KJV makes it clear it is either the hand or the forehead but not both.

I know it's late and maybe I'm just seeing things.
Click to expand...
It seems to come down to the English rendering of the Greek word "kai" in Revelation 20:4.

[Strong's] 2532 kai, kai {kahee} • apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force;;
conj • AV - and 8182, also 515, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18, likewise 13, not tr. 354, misc 46, vr and 1; 9280
• 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

Most of the time it's rendered "and", but its meaning is broader than just "and". The idea of "or" could be seen in the following examples:

... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [even] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [likewise] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [but] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [so] in their hands ...

Another angle might be:
The "souls" (as a corporate group) did receive the mark in their hands and foreheads, while each individual soul in that group received it in their hand or their forehead.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#3
Jul 24, 2016
7,577
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#3
crossnote said:
I'm not a KJV only person but it looks like here the NASB clearly has a contradiction whereas the KJV skates clean on this one.
Compare 'or' and 'and' (in bold) between these two passages...

Revelation 13:16 NASB
[16] And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Revelation 20:4 NASB
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now the KJV...

Revelation 13:16 KJV
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the inimitable words of Ricky to Lucy, "You got some 'splainin' to do.
And the NASB (Critical Text) has some explaining to do as well with this logical contradiction in their translation.
So which is it? Hand and forehead OR hand or forehead ..it can't be both.

KJV makes it clear it is either the hand or the forehead but not both.

I know it's late and maybe I'm just seeing things.
Click to expand...
Well spotted :) This is why i have come to trust in the KJV. as my main go to Bible (y)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#4
#4
How about this one

In rev 13 he CAUSES ALL, or FORCES ALL to recieve the mark

In rev 20 it is evidently voluntary

Which is it?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#5
Jul 31, 2013
37,726
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#5
Adstar said:
This is why i have come to trust in the KJV. as my main go to Bible (y)
Click to expand...
1560 GNV has 'or' in both verses ;)

don't need those 'modern' KJV's with all their re-writes & changes.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#6
Mar 28, 2019
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#6
eternally-gratefull said:
How about this one

In rev 13 he CAUSES ALL, or FORCES ALL to recieve the mark

In rev 20 it is evidently voluntary

Which is it?
Click to expand...
i believe causes all is not forcing. i can cause you to buy some food from me if i cook a delicious dish. yet you do it willingly. i believe its willing in the mark of the beast. because there is a choice to be made. otherwise the man of sin could just go and stick a chip in everyone when they are asleep and they are doomed to hell with no choice.
 
T

TheLearner

Well-known member
#7
Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
#7
First the Greek under the text is "kai" which is correctly translated as "and", thus "or" would be their error in translation.
From my study a ANE literature, the forehead is the small space between your eyes. Something placed there like a small plaque or stamp referred to devotion. A mark on the hand means ownership. Solders had the stamp of devotion to their general or god. Slaves bore the mark of ownership on their hands.


Ezekiel 9:4-6 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
4 And the Lord said to him, “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.” 5 And to the others he said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and smite; your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity; 6 slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one upon whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house.

Isaiah 44:5 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
5 This one will say, ‘I am the Lord’s,’
another will call himself by the name of Jacob,
and another will write on his hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
and surname himself by the name of Israel.”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#8
#8
Melach said:
i believe causes all is not forcing. i can cause you to buy some food from me if i cook a delicious dish. yet you do it willingly. i believe its willing in the mark of the beast. because there is a choice to be made. otherwise the man of sin could just go and stick a chip in everyone when they are asleep and they are doomed to hell with no choice.
Click to expand...
I looked up the greek. It means to cause to be, to make to be, to bring about. To bring about.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#10
Jul 31, 2013
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#10
TheLearner said:
Isaiah 44:5 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
5 This one will say, ‘I am the Lord’s,’
another will call himself by the name of Jacob,
and another will write on his hand, ‘The Lord’s,’
and surname himself by the name of Israel.”
Click to expand...
this verse really makes me want to get a tattoo "BELONGING TO YAH" on my hand :)
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#11
Dec 12, 2013
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#11
crossnote said:
I'm not a KJV only person but it looks like here the NASB clearly has a contradiction whereas the KJV skates clean on this one.
Compare 'or' and 'and' (in bold) between these two passages...

Revelation 13:16 NASB
[16] And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Revelation 20:4 NASB
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now the KJV...

Revelation 13:16 KJV
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the inimitable words of Ricky to Lucy, "You got some 'splainin' to do.
And the NASB (Critical Text) has some explaining to do as well with this logical contradiction in their translation.
So which is it? Hand and forehead OR hand or forehead ..it can't be both.

KJV makes it clear it is either the hand or the forehead but not both.

I know it's late and maybe I'm just seeing things.
Click to expand...
To me it is no biggie....the first set is a particular application to individuals that are forced to take it.....the latter a generic application applied to those KILLED for not receiving the mark....

Like.....

He causes ALL to receive it in their hand OR forehead..... <----THOSE forced

The souls of them that had not received it on their hands and foreheads <----THOSE KILLED for NOT taking it
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#13
Dec 12, 2013
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#13
You guys do realize that this is two different groups of people right.....those forced to take it and those KILLED for not taking it????
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#14
Dec 15, 2018
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#14
Just stick to the one Holy Bible that doesnt confuse you.

I know that in the holocaust, Jews had to wear a star of david yellow star and they had numbers tattooed on them.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#15
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#15
JohnRH said:
It seems to come down to the English rendering of the Greek word "kai" in Revelation 20:4.

[Strong's] 2532 kai, kai {kahee} • apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force;;
conj • AV - and 8182, also 515, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18, likewise 13, not tr. 354, misc 46, vr and 1; 9280
• 1) and, also, even, indeed, but

Most of the time it's rendered "and", but its meaning is broader than just "and". The idea of "or" could be seen in the following examples:

... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [even] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [likewise] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [but] in their hands ...
... neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, [so] in their hands ...

Another angle might be:
The "souls" (as a corporate group) did receive the mark in their hands and foreheads, while each individual soul in that group received it in their hand or their forehead.
Click to expand...
It could be. But I find it strange they didn't render 'kai' the same in both cases seeing it is the very same event being referred to.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#17
Apr 22, 2013
13,572
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#17
crossnote said:
I'm not a KJV only person but it looks like here the NASB clearly has a contradiction whereas the KJV skates clean on this one.
Compare 'or' and 'and' (in bold) between these two passages...

Revelation 13:16 NASB
[16] And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

Revelation 20:4 NASB
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Now the KJV...

Revelation 13:16 KJV
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Revelation 20:4 KJV
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the inimitable words of Ricky to Lucy, "You got some 'splainin' to do.
And the NASB (Critical Text) has some explaining to do as well with this logical contradiction in their translation.
So which is it? Hand and forehead OR hand or forehead ..it can't be both.

KJV makes it clear it is either the hand or the forehead but not both.

I know it's late and maybe I'm just seeing things.
Click to expand...
I'm a NKJV guy, but I don't see any problem here.
In the 1st passage they are saying where they could get the mark.

In the second passage they are just saying those that got marks on their hand, AND those that got marks on their foreheads. I don't see them saying you had to get the mark in both locations of the body.
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#18
Apr 18, 2013
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#18
JohnRH said:
It seems to come down to the English rendering of the Greek word "kai" in Revelation 20:4.
Another angle might be:
The "souls" (as a corporate group) did receive the mark in their hands and foreheads, while each individual soul in that group received it in their hand or their forehead.
Click to expand...
I think that is a pretty reasonable explanation.

Semantically, the word "and" can be used in the place of "or" when dealing with a group.

* Speaking of an individual, you would say he got the mark either in his hand OR his forehead.
* Speaking of a group, you could say they got the mark in the hand AND the forehead, because when referring to the group as a entity, the group DID receive both.

The problem could be as simple as a semantic difference in English.

It all depends on your view of the word "those" in Revelation 20:4; does "those" refer to individuals, or to the group.
(You could pick it apart even further, but that's the general idea.)


It's fair to discuss how different versions translate things,
but I don't see this particular point as being a big deal.

..
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#19
Dec 12, 2013
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#19
PennEd said:
I'm a NKJV guy, but I don't see any problem here.
In the 1st passage they are saying where they could get the mark.

In the second passage they are just saying those that got marks on their hand, AND those that got marks on their foreheads. I don't see them saying you had to get the mark in both locations of the body.
Click to expand...
That is how I took it....as an AND OR statement......
 
crossnote

crossnote

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#20
Nov 24, 2012
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#20
maxwel said:
It's fair to discuss how different versions translate things,
but I don't see this particular point as being a big deal.
Click to expand...
True, not a big deal, but it leaves me scratching my head, why not 'and' in both cases or 'or'; consistency would help as many other translations have been.

Out of curiosity do any other translations follow the pattern set by the NASB?
 
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