What does sanctification have to do with salvation?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
JohnTalmid said:
But this theologically biased term and not truth. Your definition of conditional sanctification is justification. Sanctification comes in when we apply the word of God in our lives.
Click to expand...
No. My defenition of POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION is justification, It is called being “set apart” in Christ.

Conditional sanctification is when we use Gods word and his power to change our lives. And even thatis a work of God.

When you eat the sacrament don't you again hunger? How about the bread itself is it unleavened?
Click to expand...

John 6 is not about some sacrament, so I am not sure what your talking about That is a false application of John 6

John 6 is about chewing on the word of God and coming to salvation based on that word. As jesus said, it is the SPIRIT who gives life, the WORDS he SPEAKS are SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE

Even peter understood when he said YOU HAVE THE WORDS of eternal life
 
7seasrekeyed said:
for those who seem to think sanctification is some kind of work to be avoided at all costs and that it indicates someone who does not understand salvation, sanctification is actually the process through which a follower of Christ PROVES they are saved

no sanctification = no depth= no change = lip service only

15Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.16By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?17Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Matthew 7

the fruit is not the works and the works are not self effort

it is life in the Spirit of God and sanctification is not the work of human hands, but the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives
Click to expand...

YES!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7seasrekeyed
eternally-gratefull said:
No. My defenition of POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION is justification, It is called being “set apart” in Christ.

Conditional sanctification is when we use Gods word and his power to change our lives. And even thatis a work of God.



John 6 is not about some sacrament, so I am not sure what your talking about That is a false application of John 6

John 6 is about chewing on the word of God and coming to salvation based on that word. As jesus said, it is the SPIRIT who gives life, the WORDS he SPEAKS are SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE

Even peter understood when he said YOU HAVE THE WORDS of eternal life
Click to expand...
Okay so in other words dear one, are you made perfect through your conditional sanctification upon your justification?
 
JohnTalmid said:
YES!
Click to expand...


it has been my experience here that folks seem to mix up works with 'fruit' and sanctification with works. certainly not everyone but those who do are adamant that anyone who does not accept their interpretation are wrong and are depending on their flesh for salvation

no one says that, but they keep insisting it is being said

when the Bible tells us we were or rather are, created do do good works which are in Christ Jesus, it means exactly that

these are the lasting works God ordains and that His Spirit enables us to do

Ephesians 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


says exactly that right above

we are saved by God's grace, not our works, we have not done it, it is a gift, no one can boast, BECAUSE it is ALL about God and what HE creates/created IN His Son, (we are) His handiwork (made, designed, produced) for the purpose of continuing the work of Christ on this earth, which purpose we were designed IN ADVANCE to do. God always had a plan.

I believe we have free will; by in advance, I understand that to mean the end result of God's plan and those IN Him through His Son accommodate themselves to that will by His Spirit

does God need our co-operation? yes He does.

no need to confuse sanctification with works at all. it is actually the next logical step but a spiritual one

we cannot be in agreement with God, we cannot accept what He says, if we do not apply the practical things necessary for the sanctification God's desires we walk in

yes we are IN Christ. but we are grafted in to the Vine and if we remove ourselves we will not produce what that Vine produces

that is my understanding
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnTalmid
eternally-gratefull said:
No

Not even sure how you came to this conclusion my friend.
Click to expand...
Because
7seasrekeyed said:
it has been my experience here that folks seem to mix up works with 'fruit' and sanctification with works. certainly not everyone but those who do are adamant that anyone who does not accept their interpretation are wrong and are depending on their flesh for salvation

no one says that, but they keep insisting it is being said

when the Bible tells us we were or rather are, created do do good works which are in Christ Jesus, it means exactly that

these are the lasting works God ordains and that His Spirit enables us to do

Ephesians 2
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


says exactly that right above

we are saved by God's grace, not our works, we have not done it, it is a gift, no one can boast, BECAUSE it is ALL about God and what HE creates/created IN His Son, (we are) His handiwork (made, designed, produced) for the purpose of continuing the work of Christ on this earth, which purpose we were designed IN ADVANCE to do. God always had a plan.

I believe we have free will; by in advance, I understand that to mean the end result of God's plan and those IN Him through His Son accommodate themselves to that will by His Spirit

does God need our co-operation? yes He does.

no need to confuse sanctification with works at all. it is actually the next logical step but a spiritual one

we cannot be in agreement with God, we cannot accept what He says, if we do not apply the practical things necessary for the sanctification God's desires we walk in

yes we are IN Christ. but we are grafted in to the Vine and if we remove ourselves we will not produce what that Vine produces

that is my understanding
Click to expand...
eternally-gratefull said:
No

Not even sure how you came to this conclusion my friend.
Click to expand...

Very nice friend. I had to ask and it clarifies for me what you believe is correct or at least I know you understand what the scriptures say. Now they also point to "the way" in Messiah or Christ Jesus our Master.
I say Master because we who where once slave to sin have become slaves to righteousness. I refrain from saying "In Christ" because of the confusion from different views on this subject. Like saying, "in Jesus name" after a prayer like its the abracadabra of prayer or something super spiritual to others.
When I read about where it says in Jesus name I interpret walking in the Spirit of Holiness which further alludes to walking in obedience to the Father's instructions. And again when I see "Law" in scripture I know this is Torah or what is referred to as, "the law of God". In order to understand the spiritual interpretation of Torah as instruction and not law is what spirit of the Torah I follow. Our Father has appointed for mankind His Son and anointed him Messiah of Israel. Who has taken the punishment for our sin and more bore our shame. He brought us close so those who would believe him would cling to our God as He wants and as Father. What a merciful and compassionate Elohi. Anyway my point friends,
The Law of sin and death
The Law of the Spirit which is or instructor, comforter, and much more besides the revealer of truth. Now what speaks of itself in such a way? All of scripture and scripture says that Elohim looks over His word. I believe that Messiah filled with His Spirit the Father's instructions so we may approach without reproach and shame.
 
Sanctification is the act or process of acquiring sanctity, of being made or becoming holy.
(Set Apart)
Justification is a free gift and as such our first taste of Sanctification is as well. However if we do want to continue in the grace of YHWH Elohim it is through our walk that we do so. This is why Jesus washed his disciples feet and commanded that we should also do this because we saw him doing it.

To often we are lead by a sinful example on how to approach God.
Roman's says that sin is violation of the Law of Elohim. There is no wiggle room in this. Where so many get things wrongness with the very first step of the walk of faith we have all been taught. That is most are like a man who looks into a mirror and what he saw convinced him that he was in bad shape and in need of repentance and is full of only bad things. The problem is that as soon as he turns away from this mirror he is told not to ever look at it again and so he forgets what he saw and continues to live in sin.
The mirror is the Law of Elohim, and they forget that Messiah came to take away the condemnation of sin so we may obey the Father's instructions and find life and the way in which we should live. This is the purpose of sanctification through applying the word, to continue practicing Righteousness and putting to death sin.
 
7seasrekeyed said:
yes we are IN Christ. but we are grafted in to the Vine and if we remove ourselves we will not produce what that Vine produces
Click to expand...
When you say remove yourself were you talking about renewing the mind or progressive sanctification where we receive GODs grace through faith when you say “remove yourself did you mean to not receive grace through faith In our walk?

I was asking because I don’t believe a person can remove themselves from being eternally saved but they can removed themselves from getting some rewards.
 
TooFastTurtle said:
It has to do with "... holiness without which no man shall see the Lord"
Click to expand...
The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14). Without justification, there is no sanctification. Those who are justified have been sanctified in which we are set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus..
 
eternally-gratefull said:
Hebrews, for by ONE SACRIFICE he HAS PERFECTED FOREVER (also known as justified, born again, redeemed, Positionally sanctified etc etc) those who are being sanctified (conditional sanctification)




Why do you have to eat this food if whoever eats it will never hunger or thirst, and they will never die.

If you have to eat it ever again, It does not what Jesus promised it would do. It did nto endure forever as he promised,


Not sure what you mean here

[qupte]You are sanctified, (set apart) first by the grace, (favor) of God when you believe and trust in the one sent.
Click to expand...

Yes this is called positional sanctification as I said before



Yes, this is conditional sanctification which may change day to day, it is our current state wherever we are in our walk at that one moment,


Yes I agree.. [/QUOTE]

AMEN.....I was going to respond to his drivel, but then thought it would we a colossal waste of time.....Hebrews makes it clear that we are sanctified POSITIONALLY in Christ eternally and then the scripture also make it clear that as far as our daily walk is concerned, sanctification is an ongoing process of transformation (Romans 12) I really have to wonder if these people even read the bible or just parrot what they hear from the pulpit......

POSITIONAL SANCTIFICATION --->For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UnderGrace
seed_time_harvest said:
When you say remove yourself were you talking about renewing the mind or progressive sanctification where we receive GODs grace through faith when you say “remove yourself did you mean to not receive grace through faith In our walk?

I was asking because I don’t believe a person can remove themselves from being eternally saved but they can removed themselves from getting some rewards.
Click to expand...


no

I meant walking by the flesh. not being led by the Holy Spirit

the Bible is very specific on how we are to walk, but so many, as I already stated, confuse doing anything with a work and they will tell you that you are working for your salvation

it seems clear that we progress as long as we stay in the true vine and our fruit...not works...will be pleasing to God

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15

Jesus goes on to speak about the commandments, but not the law.

people just seem to get so mixed up over what to follow and what sanctification is

one thing it is not, is self effort and thinking you have to do something to continue in salvation

the way I see it, is you will do the good works you were created to do if you remain in Christ...led by His Spirit

so many churches have programs to bring people in or make money. while I do not necessarily see a problem there, it becomes one if that is the summation of how your church operates

could say much more but no, I was not saying what you though so thanks for asking to clarify :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: TooFastTurtle
respond to his drivel,
Click to expand...

see, here is an example of mocking and since Jesus warns a person is in danger of hellfire if they call their brother a fool, I would say someone is getting to 2nd base with this one

but that applies to everyone but them or they wouldn't talk like that. frankly, many would think that very post is drivel because of the scorn for another believer.

I cringe sometimes wondering what people think when they read things like that....unbelievers laugh because they think the entire Bible is drivel. believers choose not to respond because they don't want the person putting their attention on them

I will be one of them.

currently, there are 713 'guests' and 62 members online

who knows who is reading these posts
 
7seasrekeyed said:
no

I meant walking by the flesh. not being led by the Holy Spirit

the Bible is very specific on how we are to walk, but so many, as I already stated, confuse doing anything with a work and they will tell you that you are working for your salvation

it seems clear that we progress as long as we stay in the true vine and our fruit...not works...will be pleasing to God

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15

Jesus goes on to speak about the commandments, but not the law.

people just seem to get so mixed up over what to follow and what sanctification is

one thing it is not, is self effort and thinking you have to do something to continue in salvation

the way I see it, is you will do the good works you were created to do if you remain in Christ...led by His Spirit

so many churches have programs to bring people in or make money. while I do not necessarily see a problem there, it becomes one if that is the summation of how your church operates

could say much more but no, I was not saying what you though so thanks for asking to clarify :)
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with the part that says If you remain In CHRIST,I believe that HE started a good work In us and HE shall ComPlete It.
HIS promise are yes and amen.
 
seed_time_harvest said:
I don’t agree with the part that says If you remain In CHRIST,I believe that HE started a good work In us and HE shall ComPlete It.
HIS promise are yes and amen.
Click to expand...


I quoted what Christ Himself said

and He did say 'if you remain' so that is my understanding

yes, a good work has been started and we have to follow the Holy Spirit

yes, He will complete it, but He also says 'if you remain'

I can't ignore those words and I won't

this is not a matter of head knowledge and the Bible must reconcile what it says
 
7seasrekeyed said:
no

I meant walking by the flesh. not being led by the Holy Spirit

the Bible is very specific on how we are to walk, but so many, as I already stated, confuse doing anything with a work and they will tell you that you are working for your salvation

it seems clear that we progress as long as we stay in the true vine and our fruit...not works...will be pleasing to God

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15

Jesus goes on to speak about the commandments, but not the law.

people just seem to get so mixed up over what to follow and what sanctification is

one thing it is not, is self effort and thinking you have to do something to continue in salvation

the way I see it, is you will do the good works you were created to do if you remain in Christ...led by His Spirit

so many churches have programs to bring people in or make money. while I do not necessarily see a problem there, it becomes one if that is the summation of how your church operates

could say much more but no, I was not saying what you though so thanks for asking to clarify :)
Click to expand...
Amen sister!

Listening to some baptist preachers, its almost a sin to stop sinning! :cool: (Its a joke, relax!)

The Bible is clear on the subject, for every and all proof-texts for OSAS there is surrounding context completely refuting the idea. The doctrine is debunked in every single N.T. book. Even the famous Galatians one which is twisted to teach a "do nothing" gospel.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Now that opens a whole can of worms where the esoteric interpretation is put on all the warning texts and so it goes: "The TRULY regenerated/saved/justified will sow to the Spirit and the unsaved will sow to the flesh". The problem with this spin on it is: This is written to the church in Galatia, just like all the other epistles are adressed to believers, if this was the case this verse and all others alike would be completely void of all meaning, since its automatic that the truly saved WILL persevere. I got no problem with people believing that, I just dont think its true, but if they persevere praise the Lord

Thats not works-salvation, thats BIBLE. I dont know about you sis, but I know many people who were genuinely in the faith and then fell away.

I dont belong to this group, but the article is interesting to say the least, the esoteric gnostic dual-nature connection is present today, repackaged: http://churchofchristarticles.com/b...ncient-doctrine-of-once-saved-always-saved-2/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7seasrekeyed
TooFastTurtle said:
Amen sister!

Listening to some baptist preachers, its almost a sin to stop sinning! :cool: (Its a joke, relax!)

The Bible is clear on the subject, for every and all proof-texts for OSAS there is surrounding context completely refuting the idea. The doctrine is debunked in every single N.T. book. Even the famous Galatians one which is twisted to teach a "do nothing" gospel.

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

respond to his drivel,
Thats not works-salvation, thats BIBLE. I dont know about you sis, but I know many people who were genuinely in the faith and then fell away.

I dont belong to this group, but the article is interesting to say the least, the esoteric gnostic dual-nature connection is present today, repackaged: http://churchofchristarticles.com/b...ncient-doctrine-of-once-saved-always-saved-2/
Click to expand...


I'm actually not familiar with Baptists other then what I have heard and read around here. so do I laugh? LOL! dunno

I agree with what you say about OSAS. another thing that confirms it to me, is the vengeful spirit with the rhetoric that accompanies it. I mean, what are you folks so angry about if it's all good? :unsure:

Now that opens a whole can of worms where the esoteric interpretation is put on all the warning texts and so it goes: "The TRULY regenerated/saved/justified will sow to the Spirit and the unsaved will sow to the flesh". The problem with this spin on it is: This is written to the church in Galatia, just like all the other epistles are adressed to believers, if this was the case this verse and all others alike would be completely void of all meaning, since its automatic that the truly saved WILL persevere. I got no problem with people believing that, I just dont think its true, but if they persevere praise the Lord
Click to expand...

well of course. if someone leaves, they were never saved to begin with blah blah blah...and then John is quoted like so:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

ripped out of context from the rest of the chapter and John's general warnings to Christians

well it's 'drivel' if you don't believe it and how would you not believe it if it is in scripture? mix 'n match verses until you get what you believe I guess.

the entire OT should be redacted ... the behavior of the Israelites is nothing at all like modern day Christians so no need to bother with it. shame on them anyway :eek: nothing to learn there (it's a joke. relax)

I'll check out that link.
 
7seasrekeyed said:
I'm actually not familiar with Baptists other then what I have heard and read around here. so do I laugh? LOL! dunno

I agree with what you say about OSAS. another thing that confirms it to me, is the vengeful spirit with the rhetoric that accompanies it. I mean, what are you folks so angry about if it's all good? :unsure:



well of course. if someone leaves, they were never saved to begin with blah blah blah...and then John is quoted like so:

18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

ripped out of context from the rest of the chapter and John's general warnings to Christians

well it's 'drivel' if you don't believe it and how would you not believe it if it is in scripture? mix 'n match verses until you get what you believe I guess.

the entire OT should be redacted ... the behavior of the Israelites is nothing at all like modern day Christians so no need to bother with it. shame on them anyway :eek: nothing to learn there (it's a joke. relax)

I'll check out that link.
Click to expand...
Well said.

I also like to pad my statement with this: I am NOT saying we have absolutely no assurance of salvation. In fact I would say I have more assurance than a Calvinist could have, because how can you ever tell you are truly one of the elect?

We HAVE assurance of salvation, many comforting passages dealing with the security we have, IN CHRIST, and thats the key, Jesus Christ, those who abide in Him, have security. Those who choose to abandon the faith, no more security, its clear cut. No need to over complicate it. I rejoice in Christ.

Speaking of the vengeful spirit you mentioned, my guess is that they are not only trying to convince you, but they are trying to convince themselves of OSAS. You have so many passages you just got to explain away that it can be overwhelming.

Keep contending for the faith sis. May God bless you and yours richly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back