Free Grace or Faith and Works?

One Scripture verse that gives the truth stands by itself. Paul does not need to confirm Paul. The Holy Spirit breathed every word of Scripture. That is good enough for me!

Just say we are saved by faith - or better - saved by grace through faith. Not of works, but we are His workmanship.

Amen! Well-said!

AMEN! You and I may disagree on some things, but we definitely agree about how good works are produced. Not really much different than how good fruit is produced.

BTW... I do not believe for one moment that your OSASness implies that you are selfish in any way. We are brothers and have much more in common than in difference. We both have that Blessed Assurance rooted deep within us. PTL!

If you want to remain in ignorance, then by all means stay there....!!!!!

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

its not anti Paul. how do you know your following Pauls teachings correctly when the teaching can not be confirmed anywhere else in scripture. Paul himself taught to establish things by two or more witnesses and the grace only can only be established by one witness. the berean Jews tested Pauls teachings against scripture and they confirmed what he taught , this means he was not teaching something new, grace only is something new.
when you use Pauls teachigns without the rest of scripture, this is when people get out there with the contro teachings, no women, angel language, 2nd gospel and all the rest.
people are going to bust hell wide open because they follow the works example of Christ?

blah, blah, blah........It is confirmed, you just simply refuse to acknowledge it....end of story!!

not according to Paul, he says you need 2 or more witnesses. thats one passage of Pauls that even the "Paul only" Christians seem to ignore.

so if someone says we are saved by yellow flowers, and says the spirit told them, would you believe that?

no one is saying Paul is a false teacher. im saying people are misunderstanding Paul, especially when they use Pauls teachings that are found no where else in scripture.

i dont agree.
faith only does not improve anyone. someone can proclaim their faith while at the same time get drunk and beat up their wife. unless there are actions to back up your words, they are only words.

If we could love perfectly, and had the power to do so on our own, Jesus would of not had to die on the cross, for love is the fulfilling of the law, but we cannot love perfectly without the Spirit.

The truth is our love saves us, which love can only apply in our life if it is by works.

So we have to have works of love by the Spirit to have salvation, and this love is towards people, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which Paul said out of faith, hope, and charity, love in action, works, charity is the greatest.

And faith works by love, and the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we think, and do, and believe, is a work.

And by grace we are saved through faith.

Love is the greatest asset a saint can possess, and is greater than faith, and faith, and hope will pass away for they are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.

So without love there is no faith, and then there is no grace.

And many lack this love towards people.

Love has to be done in action, or it does not apply in our life, and then faith does not apply.

Which if we sin it can be forgiven, but many live in sin and think they are right with God, which they have a form of living for God, but deny the Spirit leading them, and lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, which they would lack love with no repenting on their part, for they think they are right with God despite their sins, so they take liberty to enjoy sins.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And said if any person teaches God blesses with money, and material things, for the saints wants above their needs, from such withdraw yourself, having food and clothing be content.

Which there are millions of people claiming Christ that live according to their wants, and God said they are lukewarm.

And Paul said the love of money is the root of all evil, for it neglects the poor and needy, which is what it is all about, and how God created the world to operate, and love is the fulfilling of the law which includes helping the poor and needy if possible, and if they do love money then they have erred from the faith.

Which James says the same thing as Paul that if they do not have charity, for he points out not caring about people that have needs, but they have the means to help them, then their faith is dead.

And John says the same thing as them, for without charity then the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word only, or in tongue, but love in deed, and in truth.

And love means loving people all the time, with their needs, and helping them in whatever, and not offending them.

Which Paul said charity does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, which means hates sin, but rejoices in the truth, which means do not do sin by the Spirit.

For love is greater than anything we can do, and greater than faith, and love has to be done in works for it to be effective in our life.

So without love there is no faith, and it has to be done in works, and that is why works saves us for we have to love people, for love is the fulfilling of the law, and love has to be done in works.

And there is no wavering, and no part time love, for it has to be done all the time, and to all people.

Jesus addressed 2 Churches in Revelation, the first they left their first love, and He said to repent of it, and do the first works, or else He would remove their candlestick out of its place.

And the second Church He said their works were not perfect before God, and to repent of it, or He would come upon them as a thief, and they will not know when it will happen.

So works do not matter, but Jesus says otherwise.

No works, which is love, charity, love in action, then no faith.

Have the attitude that is proper, and if you sin, which we may do occasionally because we want to enjoy it, and there is no excuse, then repent of it, get rid of it, and move forward.

But don't have the attitude that it is alright, and live in sin, and think you are alright, but understand it is not alright, for then it is not love.

Love has to be done in works, or it does not apply in your life, for we cannot love in only word, and in tongue, but it has to be done in works.

And that is why works matter, because love matters, and love is greater than faith, and love is the fulfilling of law.

But we know by the way some Churches preach, and the way some live, that they are lacking love, and they live like that as if nothing is wrong.

If 5 million said you were saved by pink flowers, and says the Spirit told them, would you believe THEM? Seriously though, It is important to read, in context, the WHOLE Bible. I believe that what is being said is that you never throw out a verse just because you don't have another exactly like it.

I was just wondering how were the Old Testament brothers saved?

it could be five million times two but if it fails when being tested against scripture then its always going to raise a red flag. this is the reason the berean Jews tested Pauls teachings. Peter says Pauls teachings can be hard to understand. some people read Pauls teachings and believe you have to speak in an angel language to be saved.

Hebrews 11
11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.

I get what yer sayin' EG. And, "at the cross", of Christ? This is correct!

But here is where he is correct.
Luke 9
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luke 14
27 And whosoever doth not bear HIS (own) cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

And this is where you are not seeing "eye to eye" so to speak.
You're speaking of "sheep's?"
He's speaking of "Disciples".
You can be a sheep, and keep your burdens at the cross of Christ, as a sheep, and make no efforts of picking up your cross for all your days. And, be saved with Christ's salvation.

or?
You can take up your own cross, working out your salvation with fear and trembling, (like a Disciple) and gain the Father's salvation, along with Christ's salvation.

Whereas the first is "faith through grace alone?" (minimal works)
The other is "faith through grace, plus works." (many works)

And here EG, is where the rub is, so to speak.

Luke 14
29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

When the sheep that is? Sez to the wanna be disciple.
"Why are you working so hard?"
Or? More accusingly?
"You're doing, or teaching a "works based salvation!"

I guess, what it boils down to EG, is some "press on", because they hear the "Higher CALLING" of God, IN Christ.
And, this takes works of faith aplenty. (and not just faith either, but, equal maturity in ALL the fruit of the Spirit).
Cuz, I can assure ya EG? All that glitters out there? Is NOT God!

It does not bother me at all

I know it is a gift from God for the very reasons I have shown, I am. Not sure why you think that I think it is not a gift.

What bothers me is the thought this gift was somehow offered to me and not offered to others.

Not saying this is what your saying,

And I still disagree, “AND THAT” is in reference to how one was saved (by Grace) Paul in numerous letters insisted it was by Grace Not Works which we were saved. So there is a pattern

As for as people knowing what grace is, I think it has been proven in here many have no idea that grace is unmerited.. The still think they can earn it.

Well. I have never said otherwise now have I.

But he is STILL not correct. These passages does not support him. Or yourself. Because if they did, Jesus only died for certain sins, and others he did not die for. Meaning We are lost forever the first time we sin POST salvation.

Your missing the point about redemption. Jesus redeemes you, YOU CAN NOT REDEEM YOURSELF.

No.

I am talking about the difference between Justification (being saved) and sanctification (the work after we are saved which was produced by being saved and the power of God. And is Gods work in is to make us christlike, ie, what kind of disciple are we going to be? A couch potatoe or a go getter?

He is trying to MIX sanctification and justification as if justification is dependent on sanctification (and in the end, His salvation is dependent on his works)

Which is a false gospel really no different than the jews, who tried to insert their works to the gospel of CHrist, And what did paul say? They should be anathema

I had voted for “grace alone”but after thinking about Itmore I am going to change my vote to other.Explanation=By GOD It would be

A.Grace alone but from man’s point It would be

B.faith alone In the finished work of CHRIST.

Faith produce work of love

Is work of love prove faith? Not necessary, one may do not have enough time to outwardly prove work of love and die, but as soon as one accept Jesus than Jesus come to their heart their have love because Jesus is love.

Ahh the thief on the cross, you sound like a Methodist 😇

When you try to separate justification, sanctification and glorification you end up with arguments about faith and works..... When you take all the verses that suit one side and ignore the rest you will believe a lie.
True we are Saved by grace through faith and i think everyone agrees on this point.
Justification is Jesus covering us with His righteousness so that we are seen as pure and without sin. We can not earn this because it is a gift. Sanctification is Jesus working in us by grace, it is also a gift. It is Jesus transforming us into His image so that we become Christ like. Glorification is the transformation of our mortal bodies into a state that can inherit eternal life ( immortality).

Justification leads to sanctification which results in glorification (at the second coming). True faith leads to works of righteousness.

If you just believe is it enough. No - Even the devils believe in what Jesus has done and they believe in that He can save.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?