Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

but it says when? i underlined it. why do you say its not in the text? even without when it still says with us in the revelation. the revelation there being second coming because it mentions angels and eternal destruction on the wicked? or are you saying the rest means rest here on earth during the kingdom?

Allow me to quote William Kelly on 2Th1:7 (though I differ ever so slightly with his take on "the Day of the Lord" where he elsewhere explains it, if I recall rightly... but here I can fairly agree with what he says, with a very slight amount of tweaking, which I will explain below his quote):

[quoting]

"Is this day of grace to go on indefinitely? Not so; that day hastens when His judgment will be revealed. And as glory, honour, and peace will be the portion of every soul that does good, so tribulation and anguish upon every one that doeth evil, to Jew and Gentile, for there is no respect of persons: evil will be treated as nothing but evil, when the Lord arises to judge, and this in the most manifest way before the universe.

"Hence the importance, not only that sovereign grace should take to heaven the saints that are awaiting Him, but that righteous judgment should be displayed at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with angels of His power in flaming fire. For the day will then have come to render vengeance to His and their enemies, whether they be Gentiles that know not God or they be Jews, who (if not so ignorant as the nations) cannot deny that they obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus."

--William Kelly, on 2Th1:7

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; source: Bible Hub]


[I personally see this ^ as being parallel with what we see in 2Th2:9-12, which is what will be taking place WITHIN the tribulation period, for those who "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved"--i.e. they will "believe the pseudei/the false/the LIE" [the "strong delusion"] INSTEAD, DURING the trib years (in contrast to what some OTHERS in the trib will come to "believe" DURING THAT SAME time period [i.e. "IN THAT DAY"/the "DOTL [time period]"], as shown in 2Th1:10b);... and especially if we view 2Th2:7b-8a ("the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed") to be a kind of correlation to what we see in Lamentation 2:3-4 ("He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" [effectively saying, let 'er rip! i.e. SEAL #1, et al, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5--Rev4-5 being a "judgment scene"])]

Here it is in context (kjv)
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Now,it says they CAME OUT OF The gt.
They did suffer,but the kjv words it like the greek. Contrasting the hungering and thirsting etc in less severity than the wording you use.
Those left behind are saints.
And many folks believe some get saved during the gt.

Under your placement,you have the saints " appointed to wrath"

Another misused verse IMV.....read down two more verses in the Thesslonian text...

BUT YOU BRETHERN are not in DARKNESS THAT THAT DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF......

and you said that the word "when" is not in the text, what do you mean by that? it says that in all the translations i looked at.

We will go up to Him for the marriage and then come down with Him at the Second Coming 7 years later. This is not new teaching, but was once understood by all. Now, in the last days, chaos and convolution has become king. Everyone wants their own hobby-horse verse. What we should be doing is taking them all together. Accept the correct Doctrine as it has been shown to you, and then you will see that it synthesizes and harmonizes beautifully.

1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

if it can be shown that the wrath to come is not talking about hell, but the coming 70th week of daniel it proves pre-trib to be true. any takers?

That is how I see it.

The "salvation" spoken of in the Thessalonians epistles is an "eschatological salvation," per context.

All of that is not to come it is already done.

can you demonstrate it? if you can. i will become a card-carrying member of your group. lolz

LOL, that is like asking me to jump high into the air flapping my arms or doing a vanishing act (I think it will be like the latter of these ), haha... and that is because, most people do not fully "become a card-carrying member [of any group]" until they themselves dig out the Truths found therein.

However, I will give you a little clue (so you can go do so ) and that is, our Rapture is referred to by Paul something like ten times in these two epistles to the Thessalonians. Here's just a few (you'll have to search out the rest of them):

--"[we] shall be caught up [G726 - harpagēsometha ] together with them [with the dead in christ who shall rise first]" (AS ONE, the "ONE BODY [SINGULAR]")

--"the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" (the wrath coming on the earth, at a specific time frame [eschatological])

--"[and for an helmet] the hope of salvation" (this refers to our "understanding" [helmet of] the Rapture truths)

--__________

--__________

[etc… you do the rest! ]

^ Yes, this is because of: "the One delivering us out from the wrath coming" [context in 1&2Thess: an "eschatological salvation"], per 1Th1:10 (because we, "the Church which is His body," are "not appointed unto wrath," that is, ANY "wrath" during the tribulation period), so this makes us examine "when" any WRATH will take place:

--I already pointed out the similarities of 2Th7b-8a (the START of the trib yrs) with Lam2:3-4 ["His fury" in v.4; see v.6c also)]

--I mentioned, when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4)

--I've pointed out how there are "wrath" words in Ezekiel 38:18-19 (Gog-Magog War, and PART of why I believe this occurs fairly EARLY in the trib years)

--Satan will be "having great wrath" at the mid-trib point, when he and his angels will be "cast down unto the earth" [and thereafter limited to that sphere] at the time of the "FIRST WOE [unto the earth]"/5th Trumpet time slot

--the 7 Vials (toward the last quarter of the trib, IMV), it is said of them, "for IN THEM is the wrath of God COMPLETED" (note: not when the wrath of God was STARTED)

--[continuing on 1Th5...] "9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen] or [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!] , we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'/'IDENTIFICATION' with] Him." (Notice also: the Greek word translated [in kjv] as "others" which is "G3062 loipos" which is defined as "Definition: the rest, the remaining; Usage: left, left behind, the remainder, the rest, the others."; from "G3007 leipó," which is defined as "Definition: to leave, leave behind")

--on this last point ^ , notice how verse 3 had said, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN destruction COMETH UPON them, as travail [singular; the same word Jesus used in Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8 in the PLURAL] and they shall not escape"... so this is telling about the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of many more "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that will follow on from there, just as birth pangs in real life DO--this is not at the END of the trib, but at its ARRIVAL, its INITIAL moment, and this INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" is what we see in Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'" (aka the FIRST SEAL at the START of the trib [2Th2:9a/Dan9:27a(26)]; not its MIDDLE, nor its ENDING). At this INITIAL ARRIVAL, not EVERYONE [EVERY unbeliever] is suddenly "destroyed" (as in the later Lk17:27,29), rather "sudden destruction [different "destroy" word]" will "COME UPON" those saying "Peace and safety," but [other] people will still have opportunity to come to faith within the trib and to "[actively] FLEE OUT OF" each and every one of those things coming on the earth (over the course of those 7-yrs), IF they will but heed His Word ("watch and pray always in order that ye may have strength TO FLEE OUT OF [each and every...]" Lk21:36[27])

--Rev10:7 (at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial" time frame, when all 7 Vials are yet to unfold and transpire over quite SOME SPANS OF TIME), the phrase in verse 6 means "no more delay," not that "no time remains" as the 7 Vials which bring God's wrath to "COMPLETION" take a good measure of TIME to unfold. This also is not the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" being referred to in 1Th5:2-3, as I see it, and there hasn't been a whole lot of "peace and safety" in evidence since at least the 2nd SEAL, wouldn't you say? (there it says, "to take peace from the earth" i.e. the Second SEAL Wars)

The Beast makes war against, overcomes and prevails against the saints.....Go read the opening salvos to the churches in the church letters.......ONE REASON Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters is because some fool taught them they had missed the reaurrection because they were suffering tribulation...Paul told them this is PROOF YOU HAVE NOT MISSED IT....WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION bit have been SAVED FROM WRATH<---GOD'S WRATH that is!!

Nope.
The wheat and tares are harvested together. THEN separated,THEN tares are burned.
NEITHER IS cut/Harvested last.
NEITHER is cut/Harvested first.

The laborers are TOLD TO HARVEST them together.
There is no reason to believe anything else.

The Beast makes war against, overcomes and prevails against the saints.....Go read the opening salvos to the churches in the church letters.......ONE REASON Paul wrote the Thessalonian letters is because some fool taught them they had missed the reaurrection because they were suffering tribulation...Paul told them this is PROOF YOU HAVE NOT MISSED IT....WE are appointed unto TRIBULATION bit have been SAVED FROM WRATH<---GOD'S WRATH that is!!

just comparing verses wouldnt this put the exact timing of the rapture and resurrection right at the second coming:

1Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

here is what i note: dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, when? those who are left until the coming of the Lord. the words "who are left" indicates some tribulations and trials and those who survive until the end who happen to be left will be caught up.
so in order to figure out when does this resurrection occur, and the coming, i can look elsewhere in the bible for specific timing one of these is first resurrection in revelation 20 which is at the end and a few more are:

2Thessalonians 1:6-8 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

these two verses i note: it gives us teh exact timing when God grants relief to those persecuted, its when the Lord Jesus is coming from heaven with his mighty angels in fire, this is the second coming obviosuly. same time. day of joy for christians day of wrath and mourning for unbelievers because as Paul continues in that verse they are punished with everlasting destruction.
second verse says resurrection (1 thessalonians 4:15-17) occurs at the last day which matches revelation 20:4 also. three witnesses. Jesus repeats resurrection is last day many times.

this is much more simple and clear to have one coming instead of having to separate and figure out which coming is talked about. if there is only one. i also found a verse that supports that:

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

who can debunk what i said and what is wrong with this? i didnt read this from a book i just put this together on my own now. what do you friends think?

I've already addressed this (in some thread, I try to find it), but no, the bold ^ is not what was going on. What was going on (in their distraught minds) was [someone trying to convince them] "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (NOT that they MISSED something, THAT was NOT what was on their distraught minds, but that "the DOTL [a time period, involving "judgments" and other very negative things] IS PRESENT" and Paul is telling them WHY this is NOT SO)