Does 1 Corinthians 3:15 REALLY teach that saints who backslide and never repent only forfeit rewards?

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oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#21
May 24, 2014
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#21
It's not about where you are in the middle of life, its about where you are at the end of life. Will you be found in a state of belief or unbelief? We are talking about the kind of belief mentioned in Hebrews 3:12; the kind of belief that keeps us from departing from the living God.

3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
 
ChristianLife

ChristianLife

Member
#22
Mar 22, 2019
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#22
oyster67 said:
It's not about where you are in the middle of life, its about where you are at the end of life. Will you be found in a state of belief or unbelief? We are talking about the kind of belief mentioned in Hebrews 3:12; the kind of belief that keeps us from departing from the living God.

3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
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Also, not just a lack of belief, but also a lack of works, because faith without works is dead (book of James). Belief without works is not faith, and there is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God.
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#24
Jun 11, 2018
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#24
ChristianLife said:
Also, not just a lack of belief, but also a lack of works, because faith without works is dead (book of James). Belief without works is not faith, and there is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God.
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Hi ChristianLife, if what you say is true, that the works we do are a required part of what saves us, then what did Paul mean when he said things like this:

Romans 3​
28 We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​
​
Romans 4​
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.​
​
Ephesians 2​
8 By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;​
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​
​
Titus 3​
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.​

How do we reconcile what you said with the things above that Paul said?

Also, if what James means by "justified" (in James 2:24) is the same thing that Paul means by "justified" (in Romans 3:28 ), how can that be understood as anything else than a true Biblical contradiction :unsure:

Romans 3​
28 We maintain that a man is justified by faith ... APART from works of the Law.​
​
James 2​
24 A man is justified BY works and not by faith alone.​

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - the Lord has this to say about the way of salvation as well, just FYI (then again, He also said to the rich young ruler, "if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments").

John 5​
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."​
.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#25
Jul 8, 2018
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#25
ChristianLife said:
Your argument is false.

That person was not saying that the sacrifice of Jesus was to no effect.

The sacrifice of Jesus was necessary to make salvation possible which is why Jesus is called The Way, The Truth, and The Life. However, not all people are saved automatically.
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All of those that Christ died for were eternally saved and he said he would not lose even one but raise them all up at the last day. He did not make eternal salvation "possible" he made it secure, a done deal.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#27
#27
1 Cor 3 is not about backsliding. It is not about sin. It is ministry works and namely preaching Christ.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#28
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#28
ForestGreenCook said:
Are you saying that you do not believe John 6:38?
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John17

17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#29
Jul 18, 2017
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#29
ForestGreenCook said:
He did not make eternal salvation "possible" he made it secure, a done deal.
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If this were true ABSOLUTELY EVERY ONE WOULD BE SAVED.

1 TIMOTHY 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

But it is only those who obey the Gospel that are saved. Yet you continue on and on promoting your false beliefs. Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#30
Jan 12, 2019
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#30
RickyZ said:
My belief is that those who are saved but living in sin will not be allowed to attend the Wedding Feast of the Lamb. Yes that's the short version. The long winded, notated version is in my blog.
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How about this argument by Paul

A Christian is no longer under law but under grace Romans 6:14
When you are not under law, sin (noun) cannot be imputed to you Romans 5:13
The law is not made for the righteous 1 Tim 1:9

Conclusion: You cannot be living in sin when you are saved because saved people are not under law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This argument relies on the important assumption that sin here is a noun, and not a verb. You can still sin as an action, but you can no longer be imputed with sin (noun), when there is no law.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#31
Jan 12, 2019
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#31
Deuteronomy said:
Hi ChristianLife, if what you say is true, that the works we do are a required part of what saves us, then what did Paul mean when he said things like this:.
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Nice, from my experience debating with Christians who love to use that James verse, faith without works is dead, they tend to rely on circular reasoning:

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

And so on and so forth. :) Their definition of faith clearly includes works. But they don't want to contradict Paul so they sneak in works thru the backdoor, by relying on circular arguments.
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#32
Dec 17, 2017
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#32
Guojing said:
How about this argument by Paul

A Christian is no longer under law but under grace Romans 6:14
When you are not under law, sin (noun) cannot be imputed to you Romans 5:13
The law is not made for the righteous 1 Tim 1:9

Conclusion: You cannot be living in sin when you are saved because saved people are not under law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This argument relies on the important assumption that sin here is a noun, and not a verb. You can still sin as an action, but you can no longer be imputed with sin (noun), when there is no law.
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Matt. 7:15-20 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." :eek:
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#33
Dec 17, 2017
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#33
Guojing said:
Nice, from my experience debating with Christians who love to use that James verse, faith without works is dead, they tend to rely on circular reasoning:

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.
But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.
Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

And so on and so forth. :) Their definition of faith clearly includes works. But they don't want to contradict Paul so they sneak in works thru the backdoor, by relying on circular arguments.
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So, let me get this right. If we do anything for God we get unsaved because our works will disqualify us: right? Whoa! That is deep! 13Dunno.gif
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#34
Jan 12, 2019
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#34
Deade said:
Matt. 7:15-20 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." :eek:
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Reminds me again of the debate I had with "Red letter" Christians in another thread, which I think you also took part in. Jesus was preaching under the dispensation of Law in the 4 Gospels, do you want to be under that again?
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#35
Jan 12, 2019
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#35
Deade said:
So, let me get this right. If we do anything for God we get unsaved because our works will disqualify us: right? Whoa! That is deep! View attachment 196684
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Works are neither sufficient not necessary for salvation.

That is not the same as saying works will disqualify us for salvation. Your logical reasoning is silly.
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#36
Dec 17, 2017
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#36
Guojing said:
Works are neither sufficient not necessary for salvation.

That is not the same as saying works will disqualify us for salvation. Your logical reasoning is silly.
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This is where you missed the boat. You said "Their definition of faith clearly includes works."
We say we are saved by grace. So that statement is blatantly false. The things we do for God, we do out of love for God. That clearly comes after salvation. But, because the things we do for God are in the law, you say we are trying for justification by them. Wrong! So, wrong! :cool:
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#37
Jan 12, 2019
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#37
Deade said:
This is where you missed the boat. You said "Their definition of faith clearly includes works."
We say we are saved by grace. So that statement is blatantly false. The things we do for God, we do out of love for God. That clearly comes after salvation. But, because the things we do for God are in the law, you say we are trying for justification by them. Wrong! So, wrong! :cool:
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As I have said, when I try to analyze your argument, I find it impossible to refute it, because the reasoning is pretty much circular.

But perhaps you have a different way of arguing. Can I ask you to lay out your premises and your conclusion properly, so that readers can see whether you are indeed begging the question?
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#38
Dec 17, 2017
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#38
Guojing said:
As I have said, when I try to analyze your argument, I find it impossible to refute it, because the reasoning is pretty much circular.

But perhaps you have a different way of arguing. Can I ask you to lay out your premises and your conclusion properly, so that readers can see whether you are indeed begging the question?
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I think I just did that. :eek:
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#39
Jan 12, 2019
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#39
Deade said:
I think I just did that. :eek:
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When I said lay them out properly, I mean paragraph by paragraph, like that

P1:
P2:
P3:


Conclusion:

Like what I did here
How about this argument by Paul

A Christian is no longer under law but under grace Romans 6:14
When you are not under law, sin (noun) cannot be imputed to you Romans 5:13
The law is not made for the righteous 1 Tim 1:9

Conclusion: You cannot be living in sin when you are saved because saved people are not under law, and sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Click to expand...
 
Deade

Deade

Called of God
#40
Dec 17, 2017
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#40
Guojing said:
When I said lay them out properly, I mean paragraph by paragraph, like that

P1:
P2:
P3:


Conclusion:

Like what I did here
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I don't know what you don't understand. Because I gave a couple of sentences explaining how we look at grace, then you say you want numbers. Put 'em in yerself. Gutbye.
 
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