Not By Works

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It must be a mistake....

Another "Jesus did it all" and you have to do nothing.
Could you maybe post some scripture on this....I'd really like to see it.

Regarding no one ever being saved if it wasn't for the cross...
Were persons saved in the O.T.?
What saved them?

DON"T you even Know the Word PERFECT has a double meaning in ENGLISH ? ? ?

NOW yes it Can be sinlessness perfection, WHICH WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL WE GET THE GLORIFIED BODY THAT CANNOT EVEN THINK SIN.

But more often than NOT, it is TALKING ABOUT OUR Spiritual MATURITY BEING BROUGHT TO FULL MATURITY, or COMPLETENESS.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NASB)
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (NJB)
23 May the God of peace make you perfect and holy; and may your spirit, life and body be kept blameless for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 14:20 (YLT)
20 Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect;

James 3:2 (NIV)
2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.


OH, DO I HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT VERSE, NEXT TIME SOMEONE THINK HE IS SINLESS.

James 3:2 (HCSB)
2 for we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a mature man who is also able to control his whole body.


VERY USEFUL TO PROVE THEY ARE NOT SINLESS.

NOTICE above: there is MEANING OF MOST USES OF THE WORD PERFECT, and it is MATURE.


Hebrews 9:14 (NCV)
14 How much more is done by the blood of Christ. He offered himself through the eternal Spirit as a perfect sacrifice to God. His blood will make our consciences pure from useless acts so we may serve the living God.


NOW that above verse is talking about SINLESS PERFECTION, whereas the others are TALKING ABOUT SPIRITUAL MATURITY.

So when Doe the BIBLE SAY WE WILL BE SINLESS ? ? ?


1 Corinthians 15:40-44 (HCSB)
40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones.
*
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead: Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
43 sown in dishonor, raised in glory; sown in weakness, raised in power;
44 sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.


Therefore it will not be until we receive the promised Heavenly Body at the RESURRECTION.

I would say most Word of Faith people are trying to stay true to their hearts and part of scripture.
There is a sense in which God does promise us much more than we could imagine.
The problem comes when it becomes demand what we want, as if God works to our bidding.

A close friend of our family worked in faith with a group who helped people develop musical skills
is worship. The leader got ill, with cancer, in their 60's. They were like spiritual parents to teenagers
and young believers in their 20's. This leader believed God had healed them, and they should step
out in faith, and trust Jesus and His love, and walk in it. He died the next week. The team were shattered,
because a man of faith, blessed, talented had been so wrong. And the reaction of the close people was
no God had healed Him, except he had died. He went to be with the Lord, amen. Death is calling home.
We are all going to die, it is glorious for His people. None of us are indispensable. But our walk is our life,
in Christ we stand.

But that is hard to accept, our home is in heaven, not here, a calling above, our desire is to meet our Lord
and Saviour, to hear Him and to meet Him face to face. What a day of joy that will be. Halleluyah.

My friend vco.
I am encouraging us all to know more of what the cross means for us in Christ.
Our faith is the spring board to openning up to Him, trust, to love, to be more ambitious.
Often it is our vision that limits our achievements, because in Christ we are a new creation.

Do I know what God means by perfect? No, until He leads me there, but I know it is not where I am
now.

You live in unbelief because you start with what is not possible. Are you God? Did you walk with Jesus?
Did you know Paul? Are you saying Paul did not address this very issue, of impurity and striving for perfection?

Aim for perfection. I will repeat. Aim for perfection.

The call is not can we do it, but the walk is the calling, to be worthy, to overcome, to learn, listen and change.
Are you happy where you are? Are you satisfied with your anointing and blessing or do you want more?
Does Jesus burn within you, like something that makes you alive? He is the creator, your friend. Your friend.
And your friend says I can do the impossible. Do you believe Him? Do you trust Him?

Dear Father, burn in us today a passion for your holiness, your purity, your love that can blaze like a light
to a lost world that we know the King, we know the creator and you are alive for all who call. In the Name
of Jesus Christ of Nazareth we ask, Amen

Perfect in Christ - greek - teleion - meaning perfect

what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. rom 12:2

but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 1 Cor 13:10

and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:13

everyone perfect in Christ Col 1:28

Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. James 1:4

Every good and perfect gift is from above James 1:17

who looks intently into the perfect law James 1:25

The translators are embarrassed. How could Paul and James be saying we would be perfect.
No they must mean mature, except the greek word is perfect.

Perfection is hard to face. But it is God who says what is acceptable, perfect and what fails not us.
Because it is God, we find it hard to understand it. An altar build from undressed stone. Perfect.
A people carved out of humanity, filled with His Spirit, walking His ways, perfect.

How big is your faith and who defines your sight? God, man, belief or unbelief?
Until you arrive how do you know what is possible?

Jesus said hunger and thirst for righteousness, and you will be filled. If you do not hunger you will
never find it. So no surprise those who have no interest or hunger declare it is impossible, hypocrisy,
evil, legalism. But so speak all the enemies of God, even the accuser of the brethren.

My humble opinion:

The reason the Church was ballin in the past was because of the no compromise attitude. NOT AN INCH GIVEN. Yet in the 60s slow and steady the churches started 'modernizing' and tailoring a message for 'todays people' a.k.a conforming to the world! What we have today is the result of that. Fast forward to 2018 and we got a naked cowboy playing guitar in church, churches 'rocking out' to ACDC highway to hell (how fitting) and to top it all off: Justin Bieber in a bar with his fake pastor acting like a married couple!

Oy vey!

Its time to rewind the clock and I believe we can turn this ship around, UNLESS the Lord comes back before that, obviously. IM READY TO GO. I got nothing that special planned.

Here is how I would organize the real rewind of churches:

-CANCEL all the 'modernizing' programs tailoring services for lost people and 'modern mankind'
-START preaching the Bible again, not cool stories about how great we are and how much of a plan God has for us, but BIBLE!
-Bring back the repentance message.
-Kick out all fake secular pastors with thd's and phd's but NO SPIRIT OF GOD. There was a poll where some ministers were even atheist
-Do an INTRODUCTION to the faith 101 for newly saved people where you go through the basics. This is one idea we should take from the catholics, they got the RCIA classes for new people joining!
-Start preaching on hell again
-Go back to the hymns in church, secular worldly music CANCELED.
-Start talking, acting, looking and dressing DIFFERENT from the world, instead of fitting in with every trend and trying to blend in, be ye seperate! This is a much better witness and will in fact WIN people to Christ. I know people from the streets, they arent fooled by some pastor wearing eyeliner and trying to talk hip and cool.
-BAPTIZE PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY, big one, thats how I operate!. This gets rid of the useless baptism debate we have going on. Its biblical
-Bring back LOCAL NEW TESTAMENT CHURCHES, not massive organizations with centralized power, but indepedent churches with ELDERS leading the church. As God intended.

Thats a start. I got a ton more but i figure nobody is going to read a message this long anyway, haha! Im a man of ideas! This is just my view.

and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:13
everyone perfect in Christ Col 1:28
Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. James 1:4

Is not the whole measure of the fullness of Christ not perfect?
If we are lacking nothing, complete, are we not then perfect?

So the more I look the more clear this is our goal, shown by both Paul and James alike.

I have thought about this.

Here is what I believe, but im not dogmatic on it:

In the OT they were saved by Jesus' blood just like we are. The OT saints were saved by faith just like we are. It says the lamb of God slain from the FOUNDATION of the world, thats how I believe its possible for them to be saved by Jesus' blood too.

Another theory ive heard is that they went to Abraham's bosom in the OT after they died, and only went to heaven after Jesus resurrected and His blood was shed

Regarding "Jesus did it all" (a sarcastic remark by you), yes He did, the works that Christians do that God has prepared from beforehand for us to do are part of our growth and maturity and an on going personal sanctification. You include "works" as part of your keeping yourself saved. Sorry God saves each individual Christian from when we are born again the beginning, through our maturity and until we receive our rewards at the "Bema seat of Christ" for our works while in the Body of Christ.

You may try to work/merit your way into God's Kingdom but the bible say's; "believe and you will be saved--
you and your household" Answer the question; Why should God let you into His Kingdom? because of your works/merit, or because of Jesus blood sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins?

I believe Jesus paid it all, you do not--from Genesis to Revelation Jesus paid it all.

Acts16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."

John6:28,29
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

I believe Jesus paid it all, you do not.

Jesus paid it all, but without faith and belief He can change us, it is worthless to us.

Creating splits of belief that are not true, does not help. But then help has never been
the motivation here, because whatever is going on the emotions and accusations run
deep and the belief is one side is unbelievably evil.

Totally agree with this.
The minute someone calls on the name of the Lord should be baptised.
No fancy testimony needed.

Then just as important they should then be discipled.

That's the model of the church I attend.
We have just church planted as the congregation was getting to big.

Not sure about the blood bit.
But I think they were saved by faith and the knew of the coming saviour.

YOU ARE UNBELIEVABLE IN YOUR UNBELIEF.

You admit you do not know what GOD MEANS BY PERFECTION.

YET YOU CLOSE YOUR MIND TO THOSE OF US THAT DO KNOW.

As far as I know, You have NEVER ANSWERED my PRIMARY QUESTION.

EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOU THINK BORN AGAIN MEANS ? ? ?

I am not going to pick on you, I honestly suspect you have never been BORN AGAIN.

Can you expand on the above statement for me please.

Isaiah 53
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Sure.

Many churches have smoke machines, worldly music, disco lights, yoga, sodomite looking pastors with ripped skinny jeans and a pound of hairgel (who are in their 50s...) and things like that.

Basically every trick in the book to just get people in the churches, no matter what! Some churches were serving BEER to people to bring them in, and I think it was sister Kayla who said on this forum that some churches showed FOOTBALL in the church!

Thats the kind of modernizing I mean! I guess you could summarize in: lack of reverence and its more of the "Jesus is my homeboy" kind of deal.

My church showed football in the church last year as a means to get the body to hang out and fellowship after church.

I guess my church is satanic or something?? Should I run??

Ask God. Imo if people dont fellowship without a football game something is wrong lol. Do you think the Apostles had to do a play or bring out the tricks and ponies or some gimmicks to get people in?

This is a second witness to this happening on this forum! Lets stop giving this a pass. If you wanna watch football STAY HOME! Watch it on your free time!
Thats my humble yet CORRECT opinion.

No room for debate!