Name It and Claim It

read to here

No such thing as "name it and claim it"..

Awesome links! Thanks for posting!

Oh yes, the one friend who said I had no faith because I wasn't healed, who then died of cancer when she claimed healing, instead of getting proper medical treatment, was an ordained Kenneth Copeland Ministries pastor, and planted a large Philippino church in BC. When she got sick, KCM and her whole church prayed for her daily. She died within the year. Just a tragedy she got sucked into this lying Word Faith cult!

Yep, as I said, all of us will interpret Bible differently, that is why so many denominations and churches exist. I respect your interpretation that you believe Jesus was indeed financially poor in the 4 Gospels.

The more arrogant ones will of course claim that they are the only ones "reading the Bible as it is", while the rest are "reading into the Bible". Cheers

I Guess different English speaking cultures use the connector “yet” differently then.
Do you leave Christianity because even though it’s God will that none perish, many people still die without Christ?

When you received Christ, did you name it and claim it according to romans 10:9?

2 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If it is a false form of Christianity, YES.

Besides, the reason people leave WOF is because it does not work.

Romans 10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
10 Brothers and sisters, what I want most is for all the people of Israel to be saved. That is my prayer to God. 2 I can say this about them: They really try hard to follow God, but they don’t know the right way. 3 They did not know the way that God makes people right with him. And they tried to make themselves right in their own way. So they did not accept God’s way of making people right. 4 Christ ended the law so that everyone who believes in him is made right with God.

5 Moses writes about being made right by following the law. He says, “The person who obeys these laws is the one who will have life through them.”[a] 6 But this is what the Scriptures say about being made right through faith: “Don’t say to yourself, ‘Who will go up into heaven?’” (This means “Who will go up to heaven to get Christ and bring him down to earth?”) 7 “And don’t say, ‘Who will go down into the world below?’” (This means “Who will go down to get Christ and bring him up from death?”)

8 This is what the Scripture says: “God’s teaching is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.” It is the teaching of faith that we tell people. 9 If you openly say, “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from death, you will be saved. 10 Yes, we believe in Jesus deep in our hearts, and so we are made right with God. And we openly say that we believe in him, and so we are saved.

11 Yes, the Scriptures say, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disappointed.”[c] 12 It says this because there is no difference between those who are Jews and those who are not. The same Lord is the Lord of all people. And he richly blesses everyone who looks to him for help. 13 Yes, “everyone who trusts in the Lord[d] will be saved.”[e]

14 But before people can pray to the Lord for help, they must believe in him. And before they can believe in the Lord, they must hear about him. And for anyone to hear about the Lord, someone must tell them. 15 And before anyone can go and tell them, they must be sent. As the Scriptures say, “How wonderful it is to see someone coming to tell good news!”[f]

16 But not all the people accepted that good news. Isaiah said, “Lord, who believed what we told them?”[g] 17 So faith comes from hearing the Good News. And people hear the Good News when someone tells them about Christ.

18 But I ask, “Did those people not hear the Good News?” Yes, they heard—as the Scriptures say,

“Their voices went out all around the world.
Their words went everywhere in the world.”

19 Again I ask, “Did the people of Israel not understand?” Yes, they did understand. First, Moses says this for God:

“I will use those who are not really a nation to make you jealous.
I will use a nation that does not understand to make you angry.”

20 Then Isaiah is bold enough to say this for God:

“The people who were not looking for me—
they are the ones who found me.
I made myself known to those who did not ask for me.”

21 But about the people of Israel God says,

“All day long I stood ready to accept those people,
but they are stubborn and refuse to obey me.”

The name it claim it formula does not exist in your proof text.

Good Night All

How does one get saved, according to your belief then?

Again, let me ask the same question to you, how does one know that one is saved?

How do you know it worked, that you are indeed saved?

"IT"did NOT work! Jesus did!

This is exactly what I mean about you not having a relationship with Jesus Christ. It is a mystical act, when Jesus saves you. You meet Jesus, and it totally changes your heart, your life, your soul. People can say whatever they want against you, against your faith, and you know Jesus is with you.

"Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe.” 28 Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:27-29

You are a skeptic, you need "physical proof!" But Jesus said, "Blessed are they THAT HAVE NOT SEEN!!! And yet have believed!"

So, why do you keep questioning eveyone's salvation? As if to prove that we are not saved unless we have received physical healing, which is in the NOT even in atonement??

You have yet to post a single piece of Scripture to prove anything you have said. I regret jumpng back in, and I appreciate the others who have been posting on this thread, and the many verses of Scripture that have been posted. However, you are not among those people. Again, you have proven you know NOTHING and now that you have no idea how God saves, or who he is.

You think God is some magic genie in the sky, who magically gives you whatever you want! NO! NO! NO! God is the KING, the CREATOR, the Sovereign LORD of the universe. And you treat him like someone who has to obey you!!! What a sad non-theology! That what you say and believe is more important that who God is, and what he has done.

I would urge you again to pick up a Bible and start reading it. At least other Word Faith try to post a few out of context verses. You have no clue what the Bible says. BLESSED ARE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN AND BELIEVED!!

Here are some more words from the Bible. It is God's speech to Job, about who he is, and that he can do what he wants, including allowing Satan to make Job poor, and sick.


"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
with words without knowledge?
3 Get ready for a difficult task like a man;
I will question you
and you will inform me!

God’s questions to Job

4 “Where were you
when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you possess understanding!
5 Who set its measurements—if you know—
or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its bases set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea with doors
when it burst forth, coming out of the womb,
9 when I made the storm clouds its garment,
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 when I prescribed its limits,
and set in place its bolts and doors,
11 when I said, ‘To here you may come
and no farther,
here your proud waves will be confined’?
12 Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
or made the dawn know its place,
13 that it might seize the corners of the earth,
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features are dyed like a garment.
15 Then from the wicked the light is withheld,
and the arm raised in violence is broken.
16 Have you gone to the springs that fill the sea,
or walked about in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Have you seen the gates of deepest darkness?
18 Have you considered the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know it all!
19 “In what direction does light reside,
and darkness, where is its place,
20 that you may take them to their borders
and perceive the pathways to their homes?
21 You know, for you were born before them;
and the number of your days is great!
22 Have you entered the storehouse of the snow,
or seen the armory of the hail,
23 which I reserve for the time of trouble,
for the day of war and battle?
24 In what direction is lightning dispersed,
or the east winds scattered over the earth?
25 Who carves out a channel for the heavy rains,
and a path for the rumble of thunder,
26 to cause it to rain on an uninhabited land,
a desert where there are no human beings,
27 to satisfy a devastated and desolate land,
and to cause it to sprout with vegetation?
28 Does the rain have a father,
or who has fathered the drops of the dew?
29 From whose womb does the ice emerge,
and the frost from the sky, who gives birth to it,
30 when the waters become hard like stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen solid?
31 Can you tie the bands of the Pleiades,
or release the cords of Orion?
32 Can you lead out
the constellations in their seasons,
or guide the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens,
or can you set up their rule over the earth?
34 Can you raise your voice to the clouds
so that a flood of water covers you?
35 Can you send out lightning bolts, and they go?
Will they say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the heart,
or has imparted understanding to the mind?
37 Who by wisdom can count the clouds,
and who can tip over the water jars of heaven,
38 when the dust hardens into a mass,
and the clumps of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt prey for the lioness,
and satisfy the appetite of the lions,
40 when they crouch in their dens,
when they wait in ambush in the thicket?
41 Who prepares prey for the raven,
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food? Job 38:1-41

"Are you acquainted with the way
the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch as the wild deer give birth to their young?
2 Do you count the months they must fulfill,
and do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch, they bear their young,
they bring forth the offspring they have carried.
4 Their young grow strong, and grow up in the open;
they go off, and do not return to them.
5 Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who released the bonds of the donkey,
6 to whom I appointed the steppe for its home,
the salt wastes as its dwelling place?
7 It scorns the tumult in the town;
it does not hear the shouts of a driver.
8 It ranges the hills as its pasture,
and searches after every green plant.
9 Is the wild ox willing to be your servant?
Will it spend the night at your feeding trough?
10 Can you bind the wild ox to a furrow with its rope,
will it till the valleys, following after you?
11 Will you rely on it because its strength is great?
Will you commit your labor to it?
12 Can you count on it to bring in your grain,
and gather the grain to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap with joy,
but are they the pinions and plumage of a stork?
14 For she leaves her eggs on the ground,
and lets them be warmed on the soil.
15 She forgets that a foot might crush them,
or that a wild animal might trample them.
16 She is harsh with her young,
as if they were not hers;
she is unconcerned
about the uselessness of her labor.
17 For God deprived her of wisdom,
and did not impart understanding to her.
18 But as soon as she springs up,
she laughs at the horse and its rider.
19 “Do you give the horse its strength?
Do you clothe its neck with a mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust?
Its proud neighing is terrifying!
21 It paws the ground in the valley,
exulting mightily,
it goes out to meet the weapons.
22 It laughs at fear and is not dismayed;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 On it the quiver rattles;
the lance and javelin flash.
24 In excitement and impatience it consumes the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet is blown.
25 At the sound of the trumpet, it says, ‘Aha!’
And from a distance it catches the scent of battle,
the thunderous shouting of commanders,
and the battle cries.
26 “Is it by your understanding that the hawk soars,
and spreads its wings toward the south?
27 Is it at your command that the eagle soars,
and builds its nest on high?
28 It lives on a rock and spends the night there,
on a rocky crag and a fortress.
29 From there it spots its prey,
its eyes gaze intently from a distance.
30 And its young ones devour the blood,
and where the dead carcasses are,
there it is.” Job 39:1-30

Continued next

Then the Lord answered Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let the person who accuses God give him an answer!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:
4 “Indeed, I am completely unworthy—how could I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth to silence myself.
5 I have spoken once, but I cannot answer;
twice, but I will say no more.”

The Lord’s Second Speech

6 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:

7 “Get ready for a difficult task like a man.
I will question you and you will inform me!
8 Would you indeed annul my justice?
Would you declare me guilty so that you might be right?
9 Do you have an arm as powerful as God’s,
and can you thunder with a voice like his?
10 Adorn yourself, then, with majesty and excellency,
and clothe yourself with glory and honor!
11 Scatter abroad the abundance of your anger.
Look at every proud man and bring him low;
12 Look at every proud man and abase him;
crush the wicked on the spot!
13 Hide them in the dust together,
imprison them in the grave.
14 Then I myself will acknowledge to you
that your own right hand can save you.
The Description of Behemoth
15 “Look now at Behemoth, which I made as I made you;
it eats grass like the ox.
16 Look at its strength in its loins,
and its power in the muscles of its belly.
17 It makes its tail stiff like a cedar,
the sinews of its thighs are tightly wound.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like bars of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
the One who made it
has furnished it with a sword.
20 For the hills bring it food,
where all the wild animals play.
21 Under the lotus trees it lies,
in the secrecy of the reeds and the marsh.
22 The lotus trees conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream conceal it.
23 If the river rages, it is not disturbed,
it is secure, though the Jordan
should surge up to its mouth.
24 Can anyone catch it by its eyes,
or pierce its nose with a snare?" Job 40:1-24

“Can you pull in Leviathan with a hook,
and tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose,
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it make numerous supplications to you,
will it speak to you with tender words?
4 Will it make a pact with you,
so you could take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you play with it, like a bird,
or tie it on a leash for your girls?
6 Will partners bargain for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay your hand on it,
you will remember the fight,
and you will never do it again!
9 (41:1) See, his expectation is wrong,
he is laid low even at the sight of it.
10 Is it not fierce when it is awakened?
Who is he, then, who can stand before it?
11 (Who has confronted me that I should repay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me!)
12 I will not keep silent about its limbs,
and the extent of its might,
and the grace of its arrangement.
13 Who can uncover its outer covering?
Who can penetrate to the inside of its armor?
14 Who can open the doors of its mouth?
Its teeth all around are fearsome.
15 Its back has rows of shields,
shut up closely together as with a seal;
16 each one is so close to the next
that no air can come between them.
17 They lock tightly together, one to the next;
they cling together and cannot be separated.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the red glow of dawn.
19 Out of its mouth go flames,
sparks of fire shoot forth!
20 Smoke streams from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning rushes.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze
and a flame shoots from its mouth.
22 Strength lodges in its neck,
and despair runs before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm on it, immovable.
24 Its heart is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified,
at its thrashing about they withdraw.
26 Whoever strikes it with a sword
will have no effect,
nor with the spear, arrow, or dart.
27 It regards iron as straw
and bronze as rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones become like chaff to it.
29 A club is counted as a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its underparts are the sharp points of potsherds,
it leaves its mark in the mud
like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the deep boil like a cauldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment,
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had a head of white hair.
33 The likes of it is not on earth,
a creature without fear.
34 It looks on every haughty being;
it is king over all that are proud.” Job 41:1-34

"Then Job answered the Lord:

2 “I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted;
3 you asked,
‘Who is this who darkens counsel
without knowledge?’
But I have declared without understanding
things too wonderful for me to know.
4 You said,
‘Pay attention, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you will answer me.’
5 I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye has seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself,
and I repent in dust and ashes!" Job 42:1-6

You need to repent in dust and ashes, for your ignorance about who God is, and what salvation is about. You have been deceived, but then you try and deceive people here, with your questions. Read the questions God asked Job, and then you will understand.

PS. Don't bother to post the end of JOb 42 and say he was restored. I know he was restored! It was God's will, when he repented of his lack of understanding of the majesty and glory of God. When you can start talking about the majesty of God, instead of your ability "to speak healing into existence" then we can talk more about the last part of Job!

I answered this, but my response seems to be lost!

IT did not work! Jesus worked! Jesus paid the price, Jesus calls and saves us. There is NO IT! Instead, there is a calling by God. And when he saves us, he saves all of us - heart, soul, mind and strength that we might serve and obey him. Not so that we become him. Forgetting there is a distinction between Creator and created, between Saviour and saved! Between those paying lip service to him, and those walking with Christ, with the Holy Spirit leading and guiding.

"Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe.” 28 Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are the people who have not seen and yet have believed.”

You rely on a gospel of works! A gospel which must see in the physical, instead of the blessing Jesus gives to those who have NOT seen and believed. Again, you cannot possibly know God to write something like "How do you know IT worked?"

What blasphemy! I am blessed, because God saved me in 1980, and I have been following him since that day, in spite of pain, sorrow and all the things that it means to be a human being living in a fallen world.

And again, not a single Scripture. You need to start reading the Bible for yourself and learn what it says. You sound like a pagan, and after this question, I can honestly say, you cannot possible be saved, simply because you do not know who God is. And yes, I DO KNOW my Jesus!

I was directing the same question but to a different person, in case it was not clear to you.

So interesting that, up till now, you still think I was trying to question people's salvation.

Oh well, you can explain to people but you cannot understand the explanation for them.

Thus, can you believe you are healed from whatever condition you had because of his stripes, even though you have not seen the healing manifested in your physical body?

If you could do that for your salvation, why not for healing too?

You know there are over 279 million charismatics in the world...that means they would only have to heal 26 people each and the entire world would be healthy, no diseases, no sicknesses, save how many people from death etc....and that would be if the entire world was sick.....so in reality if they all healed 1 person....no more disease, sickness etc....

Because, as I have posted over and over, with Scriptures, there is no healing provided for in the atonement.

Salvation is the purpose Jesus died. NOT healing. I'll post the book of Isaiah for you, if you need, since you certainly haven't read it yourself.