NDEs and ADCs: Their Apologetic Value for the Christian Faith

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M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#1
May 8, 2018
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#1
Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.
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#1
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#2
May 8, 2018
388
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#2
(1) NDE researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody are now writing books about shared NDEs, which are generally far more evidential than most conventional NDEs because the doctors, nurses, and family members witnessing the apparent deaths actually experience key elements of the NDEs, including the OBE, the dying person's past life review, and the encounter with the Being of Light!

(1a) Watch this brief interview with Dr. Moody for a summary of this type of afterlife evidence:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...5FEC&FORM=VIRE

Elsewhere Dr. Moody describes his own shared NDE at his mother's deathbed. The shared nature of these NDEs is somewhat reminiscent of Jesus' resurrection appearances.

(1b) For a gripping personal account of a shared NDE, watch Dr. Scott Taylor's testimony:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...E67B&FORM=VIRE

Such shared NDEs refute the claim of skeptics that NDEs are delusions caused by oxygen deprivation in a dying brain.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#3
Jan 13, 2016
17,111
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#3
MadHermit said:
But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).
Click to expand...
Peter, who was there, said Scripture is more sure and reliable than what he experienced on the mount.
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#4
May 8, 2018
388
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#4
The book, "Lighted Passage," was brought to the attention of an agnostic friend of mine by a colleague who worked with him at HUD and was a relative of the author, Dr. Howell Vincent. Dr. Vincent, a Presbyterian minister, wrote this book, about his daughter Rea and her death in a car accident on her honeymoon. His description of a shared ADC involving his late first wife Nellie and other family members is quoted from p. 25:

(2) "On at least 2 occasions this radiant mother had come to Rea in visible tangible form and talked with her...I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time 3 other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked around the room with Nellie."

From an evidential perspective this testimony rivals the Gospel resurrection stories and, for that very reason, lends them added credibility. Rev. Vincent's testimony certainly opened my agnostic HUD executive friend's heart to the Gospel and the possibility that Jesus really did rise from the dead. This ADC is similar to Jesus' resurrection appearances--e. g. Nellie's interaction with several family members, the experience of her blessing touch, and her provision of a supernaturally created keepsake.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#5
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#5
Interesting topic but I dont go in for a lot of NDES although when someone passes away sometimes their ghost visits to say goodbye Ive actually experienced that, and also sometimes people have dreams.
The ones were people acutally die then come back to life are very brief, those visions seem to be quite common.

Of course people that never had them would be skeptical. And then one also gets a charlatans as well jumping on the bandwagon, for example when 'heaven is for real' book was published there was a rash of other books coming out about NDEs. Just go to the original book of Revelation and one will see there is life after death.
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#6
May 8, 2018
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#6
Well, Lanolin, maybe you should take an interest in NDEs and ADCs because (1) they provide ny far the best evidence for an afterlife and (2) more importantly, in my witnessing to skeptics, they have proven to be the most compelling way to create interest in God and the Bible!
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#7
Dec 15, 2018
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#7
I have read many testimonies of them dont worry. The only caveat is that some people have had them and then they get into other spiritual things that arent of God. Eg clairvoynacy, contacting the dead, divination, necromancy etc.
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#8
May 8, 2018
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#8
(3) Rev.Albert Baldeo was one of the most respected ministers in Kelowna, BC in Canada. He was respected enough to be given a weekly column in the city paper. One of his articles described his Dad's shared NDE and I confirmed the ensuing description of it by direct contact with Albert: Albert also wrote an article about this shared NDE in the Kelowna newspaper.

Albert was present at his Dad's death vigil in a nursing home. At 11:45 AM, his Dad sat up, looked ahead at an apparition, and exclaimed, "Hurry up, brother, hurry up!" Within a few seconds he passed away. Only later did Albert discover that his Dad's brother was simultaneously dying in another nursing home 10 miles away. That death vigil was also witnessed by family members. As death drew near, that brother suddenly sat up, gazed in the distance, and exclaimed, "Wait for me, brother, wait for me!" Seconds later, he died, and the family members present noted the time--11:45 AM! Two brothers were able to react to each other 10 physical miles apart and then their spirits were able to enter eternity simultaneously. Mind-blowing unique evidence for the reality of the soul!
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#10
Jan 13, 2016
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#10
jaybird88 said:
where does Peter say this?
Click to expand...
2 Peter 1:16-19
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#11
#11
John146 said:
2 Peter 1:16-19
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Click to expand...
i dont see anything in there that says scripture is more reliable than a real experience with the living Jesus. up until the time Jesus was sent, the people of Jerusalem had scripture and look at the fallen state they were in. after the ascension we continue to have scripture and look at all the times of trouble the faith has gone through, crusades, inquisitions, burnings and all the rest.
i personally put a lot more faith in an experience with Christ.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#12
Jan 13, 2016
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#12
jaybird88 said:
i dont see anything in there that says scripture is more reliable than a real experience with the living Jesus. up until the time Jesus was sent, the people of Jerusalem had scripture and look at the fallen state they were in. after the ascension we continue to have scripture and look at all the times of trouble the faith has gone through, crusades, inquisitions, burnings and all the rest.
i personally put a lot more faith in an experience with Christ.
Click to expand...
Peter said that he saw the Lord in His glory and heard the Father speak from heaven, and yet there is something more sure that he can trust than those experiences and that’s the word of God.
 
Budman

Budman

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#13
Mar 9, 2014
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#13
I think modern day ADCS and NDES are a bunch of hooey.
 
J

jaybird88

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#14
#14
John146 said:
Peter said that he saw the Lord in His glory and heard the Father speak from heaven, and yet there is something more sure that he can trust than those experiences and that’s the word of God.
Click to expand...
That's not what Peter said. Im sure Peter would know better. If you're stranded on an island with no Bible the Lord is still here.
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#15
May 8, 2018
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#15
  1. (4a) :Leonard was a wealthy elderly businessman who was a beloved member of a church I pastored in western New York. On a few occasions I had dinner with him and his wife Helen. He was very anxious that I visit his brother, his wife, and his cousin when they had health issues. But one day it dawned on me that he seemed to have little or no grief about the premature deaths of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. One day Leonard asked me to visit him to discuss a possible visit to his dying cousin who lived across the road who had refused any visitation. Leonard wasn't home, but I found myself remarking to Helen at how easily Leonard seemed to adjust to the tragic deaths of his young son's family. Helen replied cryptically, "Oh, that's because Jeff visited him, but Leonard doesn't like to talk about that!" Curious, I took the risk to make the same observation to Leonard the next time I saw him. His responded with the most dramatically supernatural encounter I've ever encountered.

    Leonard told me that after the funeral he was about to drive Jeff's pickup truck to town on an errand. As he approached the end of his driveway, he noticed a figure looming from the ditch by the highway. It was his late son Jeff! Jeff approached the pickup, saying, "Hi Dad, do you mind if I drive my pickup for old time's sake?" A stunned Leonard slid over and Jeff got in and drove his pickup north towards Rochester, NY on Rte. 37. Jeff assured his Dad and he and his family were together and OK and then revealed the details of his financial investments to help Leonard settle his estate. After driving a few miles, Jeff abruptly turned right on a less traveled highway and drove a couple of miles until they approached a thicket of woods. Jeff then solemnly remarked: "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Jeff then got out of the pickup, walked towards the woods, and dematerialized! A stunned Leonard then drove the pickup home.

    Leonard told me that Jeff's paranormal visit did little to ease his grief because he was in shock and the whole adventure seemed too surreal to be real. But everything changed the next morning. Leonard awakened with a heavy heart and went for a walk in the woods behind his house to ease his grief. He was soon overcome by a weeping spell and sat down on a log. Then he heard a branch crack and saw a young woman approaching. It was Jeff's late wife Karen! She chided him, "Dad, didn't we tell you that we are all together and OK? So what are you doing grieving like this? You get back in the house and comfort Mom (Helen)!" It was Karen's comforting visit that dispatched most of Leonard's grief.

    After sharing this amazing account, Leonard gazed at my incredulous expression with great concern and I felt ashamed because he hadn't wanted to share this experience and I had goaded him into sharing it. I apologized, adding that I was grateful that he shared his ADC and I just needed time to process what I'd heard.

    I asked him if he had shared this experience with his 2 daughters and he said No. He didn't want his family to think he was crazy. I left to pastor another church a year later and eventually heard that Leonard had passed away, but that his daughter had shared his ADC at his funeral service. Apparently, my sympathetic listening had encouraged him to share his ADC with his daughters.

    (3b) You will remember the bald actor, Telly Savalas, who starred in the Kojak TV series. Telly shares an ADC analogous to Leonard's in an interview:

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D861&FORM=VIRE

    I suspect that the discarnate driver is trapped in Hades.

    ​





 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#16
Dec 12, 2013
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#16
Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word.....NOT NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES AND OR ANY OTHER EXPERIENCE FOR THAT MATTER....PETER, in light of the transfiguration said...WE HAVE A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY and Abraham told the rich man burning in hell that if his 5 brothers will not believe the word of God, they will not bwlueve though one rises from the dead....and one did rise from the dead....!!!!!
 
G

garee

Banned
#17
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#17
MadHermit said:
Let me begin with this disclaimer: I am an evangelical Christian for whom Christ's atoning death and resurrection are the anchor of my faith. But at their best, the verifications inherent in ADCs (=After-Death Contacts) and NDEs (near-death experiences) seem more evidentially probative even than the evidence for Jesus' resurrection and, in my experience of evangelistic witnessing, are far more effective than any Bible-based apologetics. To demonstrate why I will share some of the most mind-blowing evidential NDEs and ADCs I have encountered, including some of the most convincing which have not been published.

But first, I will provide some biblical background for ADCs:
(1) Apart from Jesus' resurrection appearances, the most obvious NT example of an ADC is the return of Moses and Elijah to be present with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Mark 9:2-9 and parallels).

(2) "After His resurrection, they [deceased saints] came out of the tombs and came into the holy city and appeared to many (Matthew 27:53)."
Whether their bodies were actually resurrected or their spirits simply appeared to the living in Jerusalem, these paranormal appearances qualify as ADCs.

(3) Hebrews 12:1: "Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely and run with perseverance the race that is set before us."
In part this image of "the cloud of witnesses" refers back to the list of OT saints discussed in chap. 11. But in Hebrews, the word "witnesses" (Greek: martyres) always refers to eyewitnesses and the witnesses in 12:1 do not precede the living spiritual athletes, but rather surround them. So "the cloud of witnesses" are alive and are currently monitoring the progress of the spiritual athletes competing in the arena below. Hebrews 12:1 is thus an important prooftext for the affirmation in the Apostles' Creed, "I believe in the communion of saints." We don't need to embrace the Catholic practice of praying to deceased saints to recognize this point.

(4) In the Catholic OT Judas Maccabaeus has a vision of 2 deceased saints, the high priest Onias III and the prophet Jeremiah, whose encouragement and prayer support spur them on to military victory in Israel's decisive battle with the Greeks (2 Maccabees 15:6-19). True, this book is absent from the Protestant canon. But this visionary appearance of Jeremiah inspires speculation that Jesus in fact represents Jeremiah's return from the grave (Matthew 16:14).

(5) NDEs are experienced as a form of OBE. Paul considers his visit to Paradise a possible OBE (2 Corinthians 12:1-5) and Ezekiel describes his visions like ADCs:
e. g.: "Then the Spirit lifted me up (Ezekiel 3:12)."

My next planned posts will document some of the most evidentially impressive ADCs and NDEs. Please share any ADCs or NDEs that you or your acquaintances have experienced and what you think of them.
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​


#1
Click to expand...
I would say its the kind of stuff "have you ever been experienced" It is on the increase picking up speed. That makes me wonder like the qurry in Luke 18...that when Christ does come on the last day. Will he find faith in respect to the unseen eternal, or a worn out religious book that is outdated and not complete? And experience, walking by sight becomes the new source of faith. And we should seek after our fleshly experiences to confirm something?.

I would be careful on what I would call ...the doctrine of "How we can hear God not seen" knowing we are aware of the wiles of the god of this world the father of lies. ?

If we are given the desire to seek the approval of God who does lovingly command us to do show study to show ourselves approved, we can look a life time work being yoked with the Spirit of truth. We will seek it as our daily bread as he prepares our minds..

The Son of man, Jesus in the beginning of His ministry as the King of kings and high Priest of the new kingdom of priests as new creatures from all the nations after the manner of Melchedik . Jesus was sent out in the dessert to represent the scapegoat .

I think the Son of man has given us an example of the one and only source of faith "as it is written" .Again and again as it is written. Three strikes and the father of lies as a fallen angel broght his signs, (the temporal seen) as lying wonders as the god of this world..."

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;Mathew 4:8

Those signs that the son of man fleshly mind pictured as lying wonders you could say left the field of play.

You could say the Spirit of Christ working in the fleshly mind of the Son of man, Jesus was the mind of the Spirit that lived in Jesus's body of death as the kind of flesh in which he declared could not profit .I would think so that we can focus on the unseen Holy place of God who is not a man as us.

He refused to worship a lie brought by a lying angel. Jesus refused to intrude into those things which he has not seen by the one authority of faith ….as it is written. Christians I believe defend that which does defend us.... the sword of the spirit or the living abiding word of God as part of the armor of God.

The law of faith "As it is written" Not "as we experience" we have a living hope the promise of our new bodies. No one has received one .the first will be last all die not receiving it. as it is written

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Colossian 2:16-18

Fleshly experience which all flesh does experience is not the validator of the unseen eternal truths of God.

I would offer. Be careful on how you hear, avoid familiarity with the Spirit of Christ as the power dwelling in us. Focus on the unseen spiritual things, walk by the faith of Christ and a person will not carry out the deeds of the flesh
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#18
Dec 15, 2018
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#18
Well see death and NDE can be strange thing. Some say that 3 days are when the spirit leaves to get to heaven or the afterlife and others believe people fallen asleep in christ are resting right up till resurrection when we will all be together.
Are NDEs future visions or are they happening in real time. With people saying good bye, well put yourself in their shoes say you die suddenly and nobodys warned of your death. What does your soul do.

With Jesus he knew in advance that he was going to die and he did tell his disciples about it. But they didnt really see him till 3 days later. He did appear to them but wait hes alive! Why didnt he stay on earth, he only stayed 40 days on earth before ascending to heaven. The thing is we know This Jesus after the resurrection that his appearance wasnt just a vision.

Ok now it seems people just go straight up there they dont hang around even 40 days to say goodbye to everyone.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#19
Dec 12, 2013
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#19
dcontroversal said:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word.....NOT NEAR DEATH EXPERIENCES AND OR ANY OTHER EXPERIENCE FOR THAT MATTER....PETER, in light of the transfiguration said...WE HAVE A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY and Abraham told the rich man while burning in hell that if his 5 brothers will not believe the word of God, they will not believe though one rises from the dead....and one did rise from the dead....!!!!!
Click to expand...
Wow...I butchered the English in the above haha exactly what happens when posting with jet lag hahaha I fixed it
 
M

MadHermit

Junior Member
#20
May 8, 2018
388
145
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#20
(5) THE GEOGRAPHY OF PARADISE

At age 5 Margaret Sauro was misdiagnosed with scarlet fever and was on the verge of death as a result of a ruptured appendix. She suddenly found herself walking hand in hand down a path with a beautiful young woman in a Roman toga. The path was lined with massive beautiful flowers "way over our heads...close together the way a colonial bouquet would be." Margaret felt an overwhelming peace and the floral fragrance "seemed to permeate my whole body." Near the path's end, she heard faint voices, saying, "But why is she bringing her here?" "I don't know. She knows better." Margaret was then enveloped in fog and returned to her hospital bed. The angelic young woman looked down, saying, "I'm sorry Margaret, but you have to go back now. It's not you time."

Decades later in her 60s, Margaret decided to paint the beautiful lady and the flowers along the path. The next day she went to see her internist about her broken rib. She told her internist about the painting and he asked if she could create a reproduction for him to frame and hang among 10 other pictures in his office. Several weeks later Maria Olivia, another patient, saw the painting among the 10 others and stood transfixed. When the internist asked her what was going on, she replied: "I walked along that path when I was 5 years old and almost died!" 2 independent descriptions of a section of Paradise devoted to 5-year-olds? If so, this is a mind-blowing confirmation of Paradise geography. (report condensed from Mally Cox-Chapman, "The Case for Heaven")

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#6 Deadworm, Aug 1, 2018
 
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