John Wesley/Methodist view on the thief on the cross

It appears that the Methodists believe that while salvation is by grace thru faith, you need to show works as proof that your faith is indeed genuine.

In my opinion, if one holds the view that salvation is free but sanctification is a work that we do, you have to have a suitable answer to the "thief on the cross". Jesus granted salvation to the thief but he clearly had no opportunity to perform any works to show that the faith he had was truly genuine and saving.

Here, John Wesley made a rather ingenious point in my opinion,

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification. But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:

1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.

This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. So, after examining John Wesley’s views, I can conclude that the Methodists believe that Jesus’s work on the cross grant all believers the garment of salvation but to be righteous, there is some dependence on human effort.

What do the rest think? Any Methodists in the house?

Hello😀....Not to take away anything from a respected Theologian, but...
I personally sometimes have difficulty with acceptance of unqualified information sources made as blank open statements requiring one to presume accuracy especially if the information is a factual foundation or keystone of establishing a conclusion.
Obviously Jesus Christ possessed the ability to know whether " ( if we may call him so because a later writer discovered he wasn't and was an honest and respectable person )"......
Without source reference requires a leap of faith...😀
It may well be true and established fact but, it just isn't something conclusive I personally have had exposure to if it be so.....
It is an interesting consideration that I have contemplated just haven't sought an answer for....
Because it is a presumption that requires further qualification in absence of source reference.
It IMO without verification treads dangerously on waters of presumption. ....potentially unconfirmed but logically a keystone to arring at or deriving a conclusion.
The message would have improved depth measure and weight if it didn't require a supposition presumption of foundational fact.....
Either way I would still maintain God is Judge having the ability and insight to know the heart of all man in this case " the thief " and the authority and perspective of High Priest to make the on the spot determination.
We as common man absent divine enlightenment would not be capable of making such a determination.
Only grasping the concept as a potential possibility. And the whole concept opens the door to other questions.
1. Is coming to believe itself not a works of faith itself ?
2. If so then is it a works of God alone or does it not require our work of participation? .
3. Is faith itself not a continuation of works both within an without which requires practice and mutual interaction with God and others ?
4. If the thief be respectable or potentially righteous would even a works of repentance be expected of him.....?
5. Were not the recorded words of the thief alone a works of faith that have stood as everlasting testimony , that have witnessed to many of the merciful saving grace?
6. Which is a more powerful knowing him as a thief or respectable or not knowing at all ?
7. If he be only a thief does that send a dangerous conclusion to be made by the reckless who would conclude to wait to the last minute who might get told you never hung on a cross next to me And I never knew you?
8. To believe is to work to repent is it not....?
9. Which is a work of faith is it not?
10...Faith is a union in which we continue to practice work inwardly ourselves and allow God to work inwardly with us to make us able of outward works....is it not ?
11. If we are born under and into the curse of sin into a world full of sin with an unavoidable sinful flesh nature we must aspire to cast off and overcome then do we ever become 100 percent perfected and sanctified where faith is never a continuing works of repentance ? ( scripture-Christ says only the Father ....is ( ("Good" ) Christ rejected being called good probably due to being in a fleshly body nature. which tends to indicate a sinful nature of flesh.
12. I would presume if we were ever able to attain perfection in these temporary flesh....then people would be magicly dissappearing because God would spare them the first death ?
( but whom among the best of us has not had an impure thought ) ?
13...Be he thief or be he not, the thief ......has testified to the whole of the world!
Has he not ?
A grand works of witness and testimonial I would SAY!
14.....Many will condemn or argue against my next thought I will presume.....but
IMO.....You can not seperate the elements of faith....everyday you will read people going to great lengths of discourse to SEPERATE....
ARGUE.....PROVE...REPROVE...
seperation of faith elements.
Do you carry your good works forward with you like your bank account...do you reach a place where you have paid your accounts in full ?
What is the price of $alvation and eternal life....?
Is not each day a new day a new chance at doing what is right ....reclaiming your gifts and reworking them inwardly and outwardly with his blessing of his power working in you....whether it be for believing more or repenting a resurfaced memory of a past transgression the father might be using to do inwards workings ....?
Do we not reconfirm with works within each day....can we say that those aren't works of faith as well....
Who decides what the greater works are....?
If the Father do a greater works in you than you do outwardly in the world what makes anyone think they could ever repay him to begin with when no man can outgive God ....
To speculate the thief would even need to justify the merciful gift of Grace received from God himself divinely directly and in person by a works of faith.
I am sorry to tell you but it is to speculate.....
A BLASPHEMY......because God is God....what he sayssayssays......isisisis...IS!
If Christ said there is a thief or otherwise in Paradise then
That's where he is and there is no need to re-judge Gods judgment....second guess it or box God in and say hey God this thief needs to justify his salvation and faith by good works.....
IMHO....you shouldn't pursue or speculate this...
And I believe I have shewn how the thief did do a Grand works of faith on the whole world which testifies also that as I said you can not seperate as so many insist on doing the elements of Faith.
All praise and glory be to God our Father in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior!😀

It appears that the Methodists believe that while salvation is by grace thru faith, you need to show works as proof that your faith is indeed genuine.

In my opinion, if one holds the view that salvation is free but sanctification is a work that we do, you have to have a suitable answer to the "thief on the cross". Jesus granted salvation to the thief but he clearly had no opportunity to perform any works to show that the faith he had was truly genuine and saving.

Here, John Wesley made a rather ingenious point in my opinion,

"But does not God command us to repent also? Yea, and to 'bring forth fruits meet for repentance'--to cease, for instance, from doing evil, and learn to do well? And is not both the one and the other of the utmost necessity, insomuch that if we willingly neglect either, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all? But if this be so, how can it be said that faith is the only condition of justification?" God does undoubtedly command us both to repent, and to bring forth fruits meet for repentance; which if we willingly neglect, we cannot reasonably expect to be justified at all: therefore both repentance, and fruits meet for repentance, are, in some sense, necessary to justification. But they are not necessary in the same sense with faith, nor in the same degree. Not in the same degree; for those fruits are only necessary conditionally; if there be time and opportunity for them. Otherwise a man may be justified without them, as was the thief upon the cross (if we may call him so; for a late writer has discovered that he was no thief, but a very honest and respectable person!) but he cannot be justified without faith; this is impossible. Likewise, let a man have ever so much repentance, or ever so many of the fruits meet for repentance, yet all this does not at all avail; he is not justified till he believes.

How John Wesley reconciled the thief on the cross, in my opinion, is based on this paragraph. Here is how I understand his argument:

1. Both faith and works are necessary for justification.
2. But faith is more necessary compared to works. Faith is necessary unconditionally/absolutely.
3. Works are only necessary in a conditional sense, provided there is time and opportunity to do them.
4. The thief on the cross had neither the time, nor the opportunity to do works, so he is excused from them.
5. For the rest of us however, we do not have that excuse, so works become necessary for our justification.

This is a rather ingenious argument, I have to say. So, after examining John Wesley’s views, I can conclude that the Methodists believe that Jesus’s work on the cross grant all believers the garment of salvation but to be righteous, there is some dependence on human effort.

What do the rest think? Any Methodists in the house?

I didn't read your whole post, but I disagree that faith is a work. We are to work out our faith, but faith is a GIFT given to us. Gifts are NOT works.

I didn't read your whole post, but I disagree that faith is a work. We are to work out our faith, but faith is a GIFT given to us. Gifts are NOT works.

You should have clarified which works Gods or mans?
Are you saying Gifts aren't the workings of God and we don't need to as a man ( work ) at accepting and receiving and utilizing them ?
Is it not a mutual works in which continue in claiming them and applying them in our life....?
I would say many people
WORK....hard at rejecting the gifts and blessings....
Sometimes I work on my acceptance .....😀

I didn't read your whole post, but I disagree that faith is a work. We are to work out our faith, but faith is a GIFT given to us. Gifts are NOT works.

Bit of a confusing post, but I'll take stab at it.

The work of Salvation, which means we have been justified before God because of what Jesus did, and who Jesus is, INCLUDING our faith to believe in Him, EXCLUSIVELY belongs to Christ.

Any work we do after this has ZERO effect on our Salvation, although it has many effects otherwise.

And if you will read what I have written without being confounded by it you will arrive at the conlusion I agree with you and don't need it explained to me....
None is Good but the Father.
Man can not do good without God....it repenteth God that he created us.....so there are no good works of man without God working in and through them.....
Therefore man can never justify his ownself by his own works only God can justify him by GRACE of the blood.
But GRACE is the GIFT not
FAITH .....faith is a continuing works of God and man together that results in Gods good for all....who believe.
If you knew me personally or my testimony....I was a drunkard till age 25....an undeserving sinner....not a criminal but a sinner.....
Sinners don't get saved by faith alone....it was the GLORIOUS GOOD GRACE OF GOD..... GRACE.....didn't or doesn't end at the cross it began God is ALIVE and continues working miracles non stop....by his Glorious good Grace...
1. I was out of body.
2. I was in a heaven somewhere.
3. I was divinely healed and baptized directly by God.
4. I did not deserve it.
5. That is the truth so help me God.
If that isn't by Grace and no good works of my own then I won't ever know what is......
But you are probably more blessed than I.....
Blessed are they who have believed without seeing.....
I no longer fit the category of without seeing.
I will never experience another moment of doubt....
I have SEEN the hands of God. And his Grace first hand.

I didn't read your whole post, but I disagree that faith is a work. We are to work out our faith, but faith is a GIFT given to us. Gifts are NOT works.

I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong.
And if it were not wrong, where does YOUR faith come from if not a gift from God? Do you muster it up out of your own heart?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have been saved by Grace with faith being activated by the hearing of the Word. RIGHT THERE it says the faith is a gift of God, and the reason it is a Gift, and NOT a work, is so people CAN'T boast about how they mustered up faith themselves.

This is from Ligonier Website, and it is absolutely true.
If we believe that we are capable of working up faith in our souls, we cannot boast in Christ alone. But if we understand that we have faith only because of the work of the Holy Spirit, then we can truly give God all the glory for our salvation. We are not to look at ourselves as better than others because we believe the gospel; rather, we are to be profoundly grateful that God has chosen to grant us faith even though we are undeserving sinners.

There are so many churches that keep trying to add works, to make Salvation a Mix of what Jesus did for us and what we do for Jesus.. Making that mix is making a toxic poison.. That seems good to men but in the end is the way of death.

Proverbs 14: KJV
12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong.
And if it were not wrong, where does YOUR faith come from if not a gift from God? Do you muster it up out of your own heart?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, AND THAT not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

We have been saved by Grace with faith being activated by the hearing of the Word. RIGHT THERE it says the faith is a gift of God, and the reason it is a Gift, and NOT a work, is so people CAN'T boast about how they mustered up faith themselves.

This is from Ligonier Website, and it is absolutely true.
If we believe that we are capable of working up faith in our souls, we cannot boast in Christ alone. But if we understand that we have faith only because of the work of the Holy Spirit, then we can truly give God all the glory for our salvation. We are not to look at ourselves as better than others because we believe the gospel; rather, we are to be profoundly grateful that God has chosen to grant us faith even though we are undeserving sinners.