How close are we to the 7 years of the tribulation

More likely these are they who repent and receive Salvation after the rapture. Then they are killed for their faith, as they refuse to worship the Beast.

Would you like to provide with the verse, that make you believe it is New believer after rapture.

Some of the pre trib people believe after rapture Holy Spirit not on earth anymore.

How people believe and willing to die without the helping of the Holy Spirit ?

John 15
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


When Jesus on earth, Jesus teach and helping people to understand about salvation. Then Jesus go to the Father, He send Holy Spirit to help people to bear the fruit. Jesus say branch can not bear fruit of II self.

What is fruit of the Holy Spirit? It is love

Die for Jesus is big love, not take the mark and die is love for Jesus and it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus say branch cannot bear fruit of itself, mean impossible for a man willing to die for Jesus without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Do the theory after rapture no Holy Spirit on earth and the believer that not take the mark is new believer after rapture is not biblical.

This theory mean, it is possible for branch to bear fruit without the help of Holy Spirit.

It mean this theory do not believe in Jesus teaching.

Hello Jackson123,

Below is the introduction of the great tribulation saints, those who come to Christ after the church has been removed from the earth.

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After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”


I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches and now here in Rev.7:9-17 he's being asked who this group in white robes are. He says that he doesn't know who they are and the elder tells him that "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." Therefore, these are people who become believers after the church has been caught up.

These GTS are those who are in view in Rev.13:5-7 whom the beast makes war against and conquers. Because it states that they come from every nation, tribe, people and language, it means that they are all Gentiles.

CV5 is correct in that, because they will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, many will be killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.



After the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, He will probably work in the same capacity that He did before Christ appeared on the earth.

If you'll notice, the word Ekklesia translated as church is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, then after the end of chapter 3 the word church disappears and the word Hagios translated as saints is used within the narrative. This is making a distinction between the church and the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

Hello Jackson123,

Below is the introduction of the great tribulation saints, those who come to Christ after the church has been removed from the earth.

====================================================

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”


I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

===================================================

Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches and now here in Rev.7:9-17 he's being asked who this group in white robes are. He says that he doesn't know who they are and the elder tells him that "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation." Therefore, these are people who become believers after the church has been caught up.

These GTS are those who are in view in Rev.13:5-7 whom the beast makes war against and conquers. Because it states that they come from every nation, tribe, people and language, it means that they are all Gentiles.

CV5 is correct in that, because they will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, many will be killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.



After the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, He will probably work in the same capacity that He did before Christ appeared on the earth.

If you'll notice, the word Ekklesia translated as church is used 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, then after the end of chapter 3 the word church disappears and the word Hagios translated as saints is used within the narrative. This is making a distinction between the church and the saints who come out of the great tribulation.

Please explain and post scripture for this: "After the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way."

The key to understanding the chronological order of Revelation is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

What you have seen = Includes everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven church, which also stands for the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

Rev.4:1-2 is a prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church represented by John being called up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet. From that point forward the word "church" never used again within the narrative, ergo, the church is has been removed. After John's vision of heaven, the first seal rider on the white horse is opened representing the antichrist.

Regarding the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way, 2 Thess.2:5-8 says:

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival."

So, the Holy Spirit as the One who is currently restraining the man of sin/antichrist from being revealed, will continue to hold him back until the proper time and then He will be taken out of the way, i.e. no longer restraining the antichrist. That said, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, which means that when the Holy Spirit is removed, believers must also be removed (caught up). Then that rider on the white horse, the antichrist will be revealed.

Thank for your response brother, but I do not aware on that verse say this group is accept the Lord during tribulation. Yes this group come from a lot of nation. Come from a lot of nation do not mean accept the Lord during tribulation.

The "what must take place later" begins after the "what is now," i.e. after the church is gathered. Rev.4:1-2 is where the church is called up and the great tribulation saints are mentioned during the "what must take place later" part of what John was told to write.

This Gentile group from every nation, tribe, people and language come out of the great tribulation period, which is the time of God's wrath. The church cannot go through the time of God's wrath because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. And Jesus said that He would keep us out of that hour of testing.

The group in white robes which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language are those who will come to Christ after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. I'm not debating about it, I'm teaching it.

These will be people who will have not received Christ prior to the gathering and will be here on the earth during the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. Below are all of the scriptures which are referring to these great tribulation saints:

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After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them.

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mingled with fire—and also those who had conquered the beast and his image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

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The scriptures above is speaking about those great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. This is not the church, because as you can see, this group is present during the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom. And as I mentioned before, though the word church is mentioned 18 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3, it is no longer used after the end of then chapter 3. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride who is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath. The next time the word church is used is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog.

As I said and as scripture makes clear, the church must be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

Thank for your response brother, but I do not aware on that verse say this group is accept the Lord during tribulation. Yes this group come from a lot of nation. Come from a lot of nation do not mean accept the Lord during tribulation.

Now, before tribulation, Christian are consist of a lot of nation.

So the fact that Christian consist a lot of nation do not mean they become Christian after tribulation

About your believe during the tribulation, where you believe Holy Spirit not on earth anymore, you believe Christian bear fruit like when Jesus ministry on earth.

You have to remember, during tribulation Jesus not ministry on earth like when He physically on earth. No verse in the Bible say Jesus will physically ministry on earth, from town to town like on His first coming.

“4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God (pertains to his declaration of himself as Deity), or that is worshipped (the Antichrist will put down all religions, at least in the area which he controls, making himself alone the object of worship); so that he as God sits in the Temple of God (refers to the Jewish Temple, which will be rebuilt in Jerusalem; the Antichrist will take over the Temple, making it his religious headquarters), showing himself that he is God. (This proclaims his announcement of Deity as it regards himself.)”

Correct.

“

Correct, but seeing that the antichrist has not yet been revealed, then it is information for us as well. In other words, the Holy Spirit is still restraining and is about to be taken out of the way and the church with Him.



Partly correct. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling believers who is restraining. When the Restrainer is removed, the church will also be removed.

7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work (concerns false teaching by false teachers): only he (the Church through the Spirit) who now lets (who now hinders evil) will let (will continue to hinder), until he (the Church) be taken out of the way. (The pronoun “he” confuses some people. In Verses 4 and 6, the pronoun “he” refers to the Antichrist, while in Verse 7 “he” refers to the Church.)”



Correct! So what's the problem?

In my post I said that after the church is gathered, the Holy Spirit will most like operate in the same capacity that He did prior to Jesus appearing on the earth. The group that I was talking about are those great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17, which are those who will receive Christ after the church has been gathered and will keep their testimony for Jesus and the word of God, the majority of which will be killed for their faith.



Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

The Holy Spirit will not be removed from the earth. That is the only way a person can be saved (by Him living in them). If He doesn't live in a born-again saint, they are not saved.

I didn't say that the Holy Spirit would be removed from the earth. I said He would be working here in the same capacity as He did prior to Christ appearing on the earth. Remember what was said regarding the Holy Spirit before the disciples received Him?

"On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified. "

Well, the Holy Spirit didn't indwell Jews prior to Jesus appearing, but many of them were saved.

“4 Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God (pertains to his declaration of himself as Deity), or that is worshipped (the Antichrist will put down all religions, at least in the area which he controls, making himself alone the object of worship); so that he as God sits in the Temple of God (refers to the Jewish Temple, which will be rebuilt in Jerusalem; the Antichrist will take over the Temple, making it his religious headquarters), showing himself that he is God. (This proclaims his announcement of Deity as it regards himself.)”

“5 Don’t you remember, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (So, there was no excuse for the Thessalonians to be drawn away by false doctrine.)

6 And now you know what withholds (speaks of the Church) that he might be revealed in his time. (This speaks of the Antichrist who will be revealed or made known after the Rapture of the Church.)

7 For the mystery of iniquity does already work (concerns false teaching by false teachers): only he (the Church) who now lets (who now hinders evil) will let (will continue to hinder), until he (the Church) be taken out of the way. (The pronoun “he” confuses some people. In Verses 4 and 6, the pronoun “he” refers to the Antichrist, while in Verse 7 “he” refers to the Church.)”

“8 And then (after the Rapture of the Church) shall that Wicked (the Antichrist) be revealed (proving conclusively that the Rapture takes place before the Great Tribulation [Mat. 24:21]), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His Mouth (should have been translated, “the Breath of His Mouth” [Isa. 11:4]), and shall destroy with the brightness of His Coming (both phrases refer to the Second Coming):” 2 Thessalonians 2:5-8

Excerpt From
The Expositor's Study Bible
Jimmy Swaggart
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-expositors-study-bible/id399697870?mt=11
This material may be protected by copyright.

I agree with you about most that refuse the mark of the beast will beheaded.

I believe that group are Christian.

So base on that statement, that Christian not rapture yet when the beast in power.

More likely these are they who repent and receive Salvation after the rapture. Then they are killed for their faith, as they refuse to worship the Beast.

Thank for your response brother, but I do not aware on that verse say this group is accept the Lord during tribulation. Yes this group come from a lot of nation. Come from a lot of nation do not mean accept the Lord during tribulation.

Now, before tribulation, Christian are consist of a lot of nation.

So the fact that Christian consist a lot of nation do not mean they become Christian after tribulation

About your believe during the tribulation, where you believe Holy Spirit not on earth anymore, you believe Christian bear fruit like when Jesus ministry on earth.

You have to remember, during tribulation Jesus not ministry on earth like when He physically on earth. No verse in the Bible say Jesus will physically ministry on earth, from town to town like on His first coming.

I believe verse 6 is not church, I believe it is Holy Spirit that hinder the antichrist till the time come. When the time come, Holy Spirit still Omni present, every where, but not hinder antichrist anymore.

Holy Spirit not happy when people rob the bank, but Robery happen, Holy Spirit there in the crime scene, He know what happen, but He let it happen.

So when antichrist in power for 7 years, Holy Spirit is still Omni present, but He not hinder it for temporary and let the antichrist rule for 7 year.

I believe God let the antichrist to kill some Christian, because it is happen all the time, He let people kill Stephen, Paul, James. Etc, and it is going on till now.

If you read voice of the Martiir, you will know that Christian killing is happening now.

God not rapture Christian in Mille east now, or in communist country, than I believe God not rapture Christian that being kill when antichrist rule the world for 7 years.

I believe we are raptured soon after he is revealed and immediately rounds up christians.
Awesome!!!