Name It and Claim It

AllenW · Feb 17, 2019

One thing that really bothers me is when a Christian comes up to me and says, "you haven't been healed because you lack faith".
Boy, does that get me.
After they say it they put a pert, smug smile on their face because they feel no pain and you do.
You see, we have to claim our health and wealth and everything else because God wants us to have it all in this lifetime.

There are so many holes in this belief that I no longer know where to begin.
All I can say is that God is not a field of science for us to master.
Every time we think we know it all, we find that we really don't know it all.

I was once on the other side of this.
I saw too many preachers get rich and too many people stay sick.

Today we have more name it and claim it preachers (churches by many different names) than we ever had before.
Is there really a "name it and claim it" movement anywhere that is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Dino246 · Feb 17, 2019

For several years, I attended a church that danced close to the edge of "name it and claim it". I saw many issues that eventually caused me to leave. Since then, I've seen other churches that share the same errors and flaws, so it seems to me that the errors go together... denial of real problems, severe consequences for congregants who step outside the "rules", independence from oversight, pressure to tithe and give generously, little accountability on the leaders, and the list goes on.

AllenW · Feb 17, 2019

I agree.
But right now it is hitting too close to home, and will no doubt separate the church in a tight community.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 17, 2019

AllenW said:

The Word of Faith Movement goes all the way back to E. W. Kenyon (who was influenced by Pentecostalism, Gnosticism, and New Thought in the late 19th to early 20th centuries), who then influenced Kenneth Hagin Sr , Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, and Oral Roberts. This movement then spread through the TBN TV network, and T. D. Jakes, Creflo Dollar, and Frederick Price, etc. continued along this line, with Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Eddie Long, Randy White, Paul Crouch, Myles Munroe, Bill Johnson, etc. Unfortunately, these WOF preachers are preying on gullible and the poor Christians just like wolves prey on sheep.

According to CERM ministries: Some of the false doctrines of the Word of Faith movement

FAITH IS A "FORCE
POSITIVE CONFESSION - 'NAME IT, CLAIM IT, FRAME IT'
REVELATION KNOWLEDGE
CONTINUING REVELATION-THEREFORE NO NEED FOR QUALITY EXEGESIS OF THE SCRIPTURES.
JESUS NEEDED TO BE BORN AGAIN
JESUS WENT TO HELL
MEN ARE GODS

http://www.cerm.info/bible_studies/Apologetics/WordofFaith.htm

NayborBear · Feb 17, 2019

Dino246 said:

Ya know Dino? Every time I see threads/posts like this? I feel more and more confident that God knew what He was doing, and what days were coming, when He told me 30+ years ago, after I had spent some $500.00 on a "home course" from Moody: "You want "them" to teach you?" "Or, you want Me to teach you?"

Of all the money I've blown, on this, that and the other, before then? And the regret I've had, and thoughts about where I'd a been with all that money today?

That 500 dollars is the LEAST I think about!

But? Concerning these "Name it and Claim" preachers, and that which they want ya to hear?
That which they don't want ya to hear is: "If God didn't want 'em to be FLEECED?" "He wouldn't have made 'em SHEEP!"

And with such "fitting music" to go along with their sales pitch!

Hevosmies · Feb 17, 2019

Agree. These snake oil salesmen are wicked, trying to destroy people's faith. I hate it.

Sadly this and catholicism are the main forms of FAKE christianity today. Just like Jesus said: Will He find faith on earth when He returns?

Brother Nehemiah said all that needs to be said!

dcontroversal · Feb 17, 2019

One would think that if NAME it CLAIM it was biblical that the Apostle Paul would have had an inside connection when he besought the Lord three times concerning the "thorn in his flesh".......The Lord does not always say YES nor does he always HEAL........but he does say that HIS grace is sufficient............

Blik · Feb 17, 2019

Following God's guidance can lead to abundance and good health. That said, we must also know that even Paul had a thorn in the flesh.

I am 93 and in good health and there are things I have done to follow the Lord that has helped me with that. I listen to the voice we all have that chatters to us constantly, I check it for Phil. 4:8 telling us what to let in our minds. This helps eliminate stress that doctors tell us interferes with good health. I eat following God's plan of not mixing things God has created so my diet is plain and simple. If I had followed the Lord sooner in my life I think it could have led to abundance because the mind led by the Lord is clear to accept education. As it is, I am poor as a church mouse but rich in the Lord.

crossnote · Feb 17, 2019

An antidote to the snakes...

1 John 5:14 (KJV) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

MessageOfTheCross · Feb 17, 2019

In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. 2 Peter 2:3 NLT

“3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you (the people are exploited instead of developed; the underlying cause is “money”): whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not (the Judgment seems to be delayed, but it definitely is not idle; sooner or later all who travel the path of “damnable heresies,” which refers to any way other than the Cross, will ultimately face “utter ruin and destruction”).” 2 Peter 2:3 NLT

Miri · Feb 17, 2019

If name it and claim it exists, then it’s the preachers and healers who
do not have enough faith, not the sick people.

When the apostles prayed for the lame man, they didn’t tell him he must
name it and claim it. The lame man wasn’t even expecting to be healed.
They prayed and yet he was healed.

Then there was the example of the disciples trying to drive out demons and couldn’t.
Jesus told them this kind needed much prayer and fasting. Yet he didn’t expect the demon
possessed man to prayer and fast, Jesus directed this comment to the disciples.

It says if anyone is sick, to call for the elders and leaders of the church. It doesn’t say
the sick person should do it for themselves and if they can’t it’s lack of faith.

So to the OP, the next time someone says you don’t have enough faith. Tell them actually
it’s apparently you who doesn’t have enough faith or I would be healed by now!

MessageOfTheCross · Feb 17, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. 2 Peter 2:3 NLT

“3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you (the people are exploited instead of developed; the underlying cause is “money”): whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not (the Judgment seems to be delayed, but it definitely is not idle; sooner or later all who travel the path of “damnable heresies,” which refers to any way other than the Cross, will ultimately face “utter ruin and destruction”).” 2 Peter 2:3 NLT

2 Peter 2:3 KJV

JSM

Dino246 · Feb 17, 2019

MessageOfTheCross said:

You've gotten your Jims mixed up. "2 Peter 2:3 KJV" is not attributed to "JSM".

Nehemiah6 · Feb 17, 2019

dcontroversal said:

And Epaphroditus nearly died while Paul was still on earth. Timothy's stomach ailments were not healed by Paul either. And yet if anyone was an outstanding miracle worker, it was Paul himself.

know1 · Feb 17, 2019

AllenW said:

What does the word of God say? How it is written?
What is true, the word of God or what we see, hear, and experience?
After all, Jesus prayed, "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."
Do you see His will done on earth as it is in heaven?
Is there any sick in heaven?
Is there any suffering there?
Has everyone on earth come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and actually received Him into their heart?
Stop looking at the natural for the answers, and start looking to and keeping your focus on the word of God.
Of course it is both true and real.
If it works for both my family and I, then God, who is a respecter of no one, cannot favor us over you, by doing what we say and ask for and not you.
In fact, I can guarantee you this much, it works against you because of what you say.

know1 · Feb 17, 2019

Dino246 said:

When you say denying the real problems, what do you think the below verses are referring to?

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

If you already have something, how can it be given, since you already have it?
And how can something be taken from you if you don't yet have it?
No one can take what you don't have or give you what you do have.
Or can they?
What does the word of God mean when it says, you don't have something?
What would it mean if you DENIED having something, simply because you didn't want or like it?
Keep in mind that God is always speaking to matters of the heart.
Some, if not most, would say you can't deny what is fact or reality.
Of course you can.
Well then, you say, it's not going to change anything.
Is that the truth.
The word of God says, if you deny having something, the very thing you have denied having, shall be taken from you.
I got healed of a bad flu, by this same verse, after two days of doing nothing but getting worse. I rejected the virus itself and symptoms it caused, for about an hour and a half, before it went.
I had an officer take back the citation he put on my vehicle, because I rejected it.
One was in the process of writing it up, and immediately after rejecting it, I watched Him do an about face and let it go.
And there were others, but in each case, I believe I was in the right and they were in the wrong.
If I thought I was in the wrong, then I wouldn't have any faith for that to work.
So I have change my reality many times by rejecting reality.

Guojing · Feb 17, 2019

Which is easier to say for Christians now? Your sins are forgiven OR rise, take up your bed and walk?

Dino246 · Feb 17, 2019

know1 said:

When you say denying the real problems, what do you think the below verses are referring to?

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

If you already have something, how can it be given, since you already have it?
And how can something be taken from you if you don't yet have it?
No one can take what you don't have or give you what you do have.
Or can they?
What does the word of God mean when it says, you don't have something?
What would it mean if you DENIED having something, simply because you didn't want or like it?
Keep in mind that God is always speaking to matters of the heart.
Some, if not most, would say you can't deny what is fact or reality.
Of course you can.
Well then, you say, it's not going to change anything.
Is that the truth.
The word of God says, if you deny having something, the very thing you have denied having, shall be taken from you.
I got healed of a bad flu, by this same verse, after two days of doing nothing but getting worse. I rejected the virus itself and symptoms it caused, for about an hour and a half, before it went.
I had an officer take back the citation he put on my vehicle, because I rejected it.
One was in the process of writing it up, and immediately after rejecting it, I watched Him do an about face and let it go.
And there were others, but in each case, I believe I was in the right and they were in the wrong.
If I thought I was in the wrong, then I wouldn't have any faith for that to work.
So I have change my reality many times by rejecting reality.

The issues to which I was referring were wrongdoings that were covered up and kept hidden by leaders, or that were explained away as "not serious" when in fact they were serious. Or, worse, publicized when they should have been kept private.

know1 · Feb 17, 2019

Nehemiah6 said:

Are you saying all these people are lying when giving their account of the word of God working for them?
By the way, faith is not a force but a thing.
And just like positive confession, names, claims, and frames what a person wants, it does the same on the reciprocal side or opposite end of the spectrum.
If scripture is the foundation on which we build our house, how can we get any revelation outside what scripture says?
Jesus was without sin, and therefore did not need to be born again. Both silly and ridiculous.
Not sure about Jesus going to hell. He was made sin for us and therefore had to suffer the penalty of sin, but at the same time, He told the other man, "this day I will be with you in paradise". Paradise was in the heart or belly of the earth at the time, before Jesus' resurrection.
As for us being little gods, yeah, I think we are because of what is written.
Jesus not only said we were, but John said, "as Jesus is in us, so are we in this world."
And Peter said, we are "partakers of [His] divine nature" through the promises of God.
I just believe what is written and don't care what other think or say, unless they can prove through the word of God the contrary.

know1 · Feb 17, 2019

crossnote said:

Let's add that principle to scripture concerning salvation and OSAS.
We wouldn't want to show any bias.

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