Why I now have issues about "once saved, always saved"

Do not be mad at me. Yet John 15:2 seems to be clear.

We should be mad at you. One does not establish any doctrine on the basis of one verse.

We are saved by grace but we maintain it with our works?

That is not the meaning of John 15:2. Matthew Henry gives us a good summary:

(1.) The doom of the unfruitful (v. 2): They are taken away. [1.] It is here intimated that there are many who pass for branches in Christ who yet do not bear fruit. Were they really united to Christ by faith, they would bear fruit; but being only tied to him by the thread of an outward profession, though they seem to be branches, they will soon be seen to be dry ones. Unfruitful professors are unfaithful professors; professors, and no more. It might be read, Every branch that beareth not fruit in me, and it comes much to one; for those that do not bear fruit in Christ, and in his Spirit and grace, are as if they bore no fruit at all, Hos. 10:1. [2.] It is here threatened that they shall be taken away, in justice to them and in kindness to the rest of the branches. From him that has not real union with Christ, and fruit produced thereby, shall be taken away even that which he seemed to have, Lu. 8:18. Some think this refers primarily to Judas.

As I have said on another debate, there are verses in the bible that support osas and verses that oppose it. So how do we have an understanding that does not bring the bible into conflict with itself? Make a full commitment you have osas, make a different commitment and you may not. Different things are written for different people in the bible. Be less worried about making people mad on the internet, than getting it wrong with scripture

Not mad at you.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Clear about losing salvation? From that verse? Are we reading the same verse?

The idea that a person is “once saved always saved” (without any regard to how that person lives) is a lie of the Devil, and was NOT taught by the Lord Jesus or the Apostles of the early Church. There has been a great deal of controversy over whether the eternal security of Christians is conditional or unconditional. Is the will of God irresistible regarding salvation, or can a believer frustrate the will of God and become an apostate from the faith? The Scriptures teach that believing in Jesus does not take away our free will, and that it is possible for Christians to apostatise and lose their salvation. However, the Scriptures also emphasise the eternal security of those who cling to and follow their Lord. John 10v27-29.

We are saved by grace but we continue in grace by continuing to believe Jesus and trust int eh atonement He secured for our salvation.. We are to endure to the end of our lives..

Matthew 24: KJV
13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

If its all about right believing, then i most certainly will agree with you.

As soon as you measure your salvation by anything other than the finished work of the vicarious atonement you have lost your faith.
You have transferred the basis of your salvation from the finished work on the cross to your own works.

If your "ultimate" salvation is based on your own efforts, how do you measure that?
Did you do enough? (who knows) Could you have done more? (of course) Did you do enough? (impossible to say)

To establish matters concerning the body of Christ, go to Paul's thirteen epistles. You are establishing doctrine based on a verse in John where the NT is not yet established. NT doctrine is established after the death of the testator, Jesus Christ.

The context for that verse is the end times scenario. Nothing to do with the salvation of our souls.
You are promoting salvation by personal effort. (works)

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

How does a branch in Christ NOT bear fruit?

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I suppose it is not a branch that is in Christ but a branch that has decided it is up to him to keep himself saved and produce fruit of himself.

So if you don't believe in OSAS you are probably right. The only way you are OSAS is if you Trust in Christ.

John 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


The words “he taketh away” are the Greek word airō which means to raise up, elevate.

The branch [believer] that is in Christ but is not fruit-bearing, is lifted up and supported so that he/she may bring forth fruit.

The believer who bears fruit is cleansed of filth and impurity so that he/she may bring forth fruit.

Father [the Husbandman] and the Lord Jesus Christ [the Vine] provide all that is needed in order that each and every believer [the branch] brings forth fruit.

Those who are weak and have no fruit are lifted up and supported so that the sap from the Vine flows more freely and provides that which is needed for bearing fruit.

Those who bear fruit are purged (cleansed) ... impurities are removed in order to bring forth more fruit.

The gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE

Salvation is a GIFT of eternal life

Anyone that teaches salvation is losable believes and teaches that it is REVOCABLE

The bible states it is IRREVOCABLE, SALVATION losers teach it is REVOCABLE....It is obvious who is wrong!

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jesus said every branch that abides in Him, which means they confessed Jesus as Lord and Savior, so how are they going to be thrown away if they had faith, and confessed Christ.

All we have to do is go by the scriptures concerning the nature of God for the answer, and there are many scriptures that state that God does not want anyone to perish, but all to come to the truth, and be saved, and commands all people to repent, so that means anybody can have salvation.

The Bible says that the saints are predestined to salvation, which does not mean that they were chosen by God without their choice in the matter.

God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future it is the same as if it happened in the beginning, for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world, which they were future events, but God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened.

The saints predestined to salvation means that God already had the plan of salvation for the world before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, and this salvation is to whoever wants it, for the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody that wants that salvation can have it.

Back to the nature of God that He is good, and not evil, and loves all people, and His kingdom true love.

If God chose who would be saved without their choice in the matter, then they are robots for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That means their faith was not real, and their confession of Christ was not real, and their repenting of their sins was not real, and their hope was not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

That means God's kingdom is not true love for they did not choose to accept the truth, and are like robots for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

If you design a robot, and program it to say I love you, does the robot truly love you, for it has no choice but to say I love you, seeing no other alternative.

God who is the greatest love of all would not want robotic love, and He is highly intelligent to not accept it knowing it is not true love.

And for the people God did not choose, why are they condemned, and to be judged, when they were not chosen to be saved, so how is it their fault, for they had no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice in the matter, for He is a good, and loving God.

By people saying that God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choice in the matter, would be saying God's kingdom is not true love, and He is evil for condemning people that did nothing wrong for they have no choice but to reject the truth, which is blasphemy against the Spirit, which a person does not want to sat that, for God is good, and loving.

It goes against the scriptures of God stating He wants all people to be saved, and against His nature that He is good, and loving.

The Bible states that God so loved the world that He gave His own begotten Son, not some of the world, and God commands all people to repent.

Also the Bible says there is none that does good, no, not one.

And all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

And what makes you to differ from another.

And there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

And if you think you are something when you are nothing, you deceive yourselves, which God said the nations are nothing, and less than nothing.

And if you offend in the least of the law, you offend in all.

And God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation those that fear Him, and do righteousness is accepted with Him.

So to God all people are in the same boat, and are a sinner, and God does not respect one person above the other, and says there is no difference between them, so He views all people the same in His eyes as a sinner, and if you offend in the least of the law, you offend in all, which the Bible says all sin is unrighteousness.

So that means that if God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their input, He did not do it on the basis of their sin, for everybody is the same in God's eyes.

Which means that God chose some, and not chosen some, would not be based on their sins, for everybody is the same in God's eyes, and He is no respecter of persons.

So could they explain what criteria God chose some, and not chose some, that is not based on the sins they did on earth.

Was it because there is only so much room in heaven, and not all can fit.

Is it because they have the ability to hop on one leg for the duration of hour.

Is it their looks, their athletic ability, their intelligence.

For what is the criteria that God chose some, and did not chose some, if it is not based on their sins that one was worse than another.

And the Bible says it is our sins that separate us from Him, so what other criteria is it.

See how all people are the same in God's eyes, so He would not choose some to be saved, and not choose some to be saved, because their would be no basis for it if it is not because of their sins that one is worse than another.

Also the Bible says many are called, but few are saved, so why is God calling people that cannot be saved.

And He commands all people to repent, so why is He commanding all people to repent when it would not make a difference to those He did not choose for they would not repent anyway.

Also the Bible says that no one says that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

And Peter claimed Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God, which Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal that to him, but the Father.

And concerning the end time that the wicked shall not understand, but the wise shall understand.

But many people who do not believe in OSAS unless a person abstains from sins led by the Spirit, believe those things concerning Jesus as Lord and Savior, the Son of the living God, and understand the end times.

Even Jehovah's witnesses understand the end times that the world will rebel against God, and they will not go along with it, but they could not do that unless God was working in their lives.

But they do not understand the deity of Jesus, for many are called but few are chosen.

Also the Bible says that some have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, from such turn away, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, which they enjoy the world as the world enjoys it, especially neglecting the poor and needy.

But the many people that believe they cannot fall believe they cannot abstain from sin, so they are holding unto sin, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, despite the Bible saying if they hate sin, and do not want sin, by the Spirit they can abstain from sin.

But the Bible says the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity, and awake to righteousness, and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God, and they that do not do righteousness are not of God.

So while they think they are alright with God despite their sins, the Bible says turn away from them, so that does not sound good for the OSAS people.

For the Bible says give offense in nothing that the ministry be not blamed, but their hypocrisy of engaging in sins, for they say they cannot abstain from sins is causing many people to call them hypocrites, and not wanting to accept Christianity.

Also many are called but few are chosen, and God chose us we did not choose Him, for when God calls a person based on their heart condition He will work in their lives to get them to the truth, and when they get to the door of truth they have to make the choice to walk through the door, for God's kingdom is true love, but they would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in their life.

And this truth is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, repent of their sins, and realize that sins does affect their relationship, and to abstain from sins led by the Spirit, and if they sin to repent and get rid of it, and keep moving forward.

But many do not realize this as they engage in sins, and enjoy sins, and think they are alright with God, and it does not affect their salvation.

Continued,

Continued,

But how can you debate with many of them for the Bible says they are ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But when they sinned they enjoyed the sin, for if they did not enjoy the sin they would of not done it, so they done it on purpose, and if they done it on purpose then what is their excuse for the sin.

And if they say they cannot abstain from sin then they are holding unto sin, then how is their sin forgiven if they cannot abstain from sin, for there is always sin on their record.

Which the Bible says if we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, holding unto sin, then there is no more sacrifice for sin, which means the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away for we are holding unto it.

But many cannot come to the truth for they will not let go of all of the flesh, but want to enjoy some things of it, which they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

And we see many of them as they enjoy the world as the world enjoys the world, heaping money, and material things to themselves, for their wants, watching worldly movies, and shows, and worldly music, and enjoying cruises, and vacations, going to sporting events, and things of the world that cost money to enjoy their wants, neglecting the poor and needy in favor of fleshy pleasures.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Works do not save us but many do not know when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, or the Spirit.

We are not saved by works but by faith when we first confess Christ, for that is all we can do is have faith for we have not received the Spirit yet, and our works at that time are as filthy rags.

But then Paul speaks according to the Spirit that he could have all faith so he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, love in action, works, then he is nothing, and people that do not have charity have erred from the faith.

And that is because charity is greater than faith, and faith works by love, so if a person does not have charity, works of love, then they do not have faith.

Which James said without charity their faith is dead.

And John said the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word, or in tongue, but in deed, action, works, and in truth.

Love has to be done in action, works, for it to be valid, and love, works, is greater than faith, so that is why our works matter for without works of love then our faith does not count.

And this is not a partial thing, but love all the time, for you cannot do some works of love, and then neglect some works of love in favor of wants, and selfishness, for a little leaven leavens the whole lump.

God had the plan of salvation for mankind before He laid down the foundation of the world, so it is the same as if the saints have salvation in the beginning, for God calls things that have not happened yet, as though they already happened, and this salvation is to whoever wants it, not God chose some, and not chose some, without their choice.

OSAS stirred up a whole lot of trouble, and produced many hypocrites that think they are alright despite their sins.

This is the Holy Spirit convicting you.

Considering both Protestants and Catholics, nearly 2 billion people in the world refer to themselves as "Christian." And yet, Jesus said, "And few there be who find it," speaking of Eternal Life (Matthew 7:14).

So, this means that hundreds of millions are in the church but not "in Christ." As well, it speaks of tremendous numbers of others who are truly "in Christ," but will ultimately be removed for lack of fruit bearing. In other words, they forsake the Cross for something else (John 15:2, 6).

All born again Christians place their Faith in Jesus Christ and the Cross of Calvary for salvation. But few Christians place and maintain their Faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross of Calvary for sanctification. In other words their Faith may be in Christ but not the Cross, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus." The Apostle Paul calls this "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4). Christ must never be separated from the Work of the Cross; to do so is to produce "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4). Misplaced Faith = "Spiritual Adultery" - you are proclaiming Jesus, but ignoring the Cross (lukewarm).

2 Every branch (Believer) in Me (to have Salvation, we must be “in Christ” which refers to trusting in what He did at the Cross) that bears not fruit (the Holy Spirit Alone can bring forth fruit within our lives, and He does such through the Finished Work of Christ, which demands that the Cross ever be the Object of our Faith) He takes away (if the Believer refuses the Cross, ultimately, he will be taken out of the Body of Christ): and every branch that bears fruit (has some understanding of Christ and the Cross), He purges it (uses whatever means necessary to make the Cross the total Object of one’s Faith), that it may bring forth more fruit (only when the Cross becomes the total Object of one’s Faith can the Holy Spirit perform His Work of bringing forth proper fruit [Rom. 8:1-2, 11]).” John 15:2

JSM

Now if only we had free will to begin with!

If you believe in foreknowledge, you belive in predestination.

WHY would God bother saving people who He knows would go APOSTATE? In the arminian VIEW?

Arminianism is RIDICILOUS.

Here is some good comedy: