End time signs in Amillennialism?

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Noose

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Hevosmies said:
Another thing that worries me is if we read the book of Revelation like the amills do: We end up with a system where we have to always go and ask Pastor X "what does this mean and that mean".

I just heard with my own ears and read with my own eyes that times, time and half a time DOESNT mean 1260 days as I had thought by just READING the book of Revelation, but rather that it means the ENTIRE TIME from ascension to second coming!

UNBELIEVABLE! Where is the precedent to such an interpretation? NO clue in the text whatsoever for it!
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There's no point of arguing, non of the groups is right (amill/Mill/preterits) and you don't need to go to pastor X for an explanation, you need to ask for understanding from God.

The 3 1/2 years are not literal years, it is an earthly equation that can be solved by man using normal earthly Mathematical laws- that's why Rev 13 says "..it is the number of a man...let he who has wisdom count/calculate the number of the beast..".
It doesn't mean that it is a man (flesh & bones), it simply means it is a timeline calculable using normal earthly mathematical equation.

And the equation posed is this: the beast is given authority for 3.5 years yet the number of the beast is 666, so the total authority in years is 3.5 x 666 =2331 years.
Convert it back to our calendar years and you'll get 2297.49 years. But it is somehow complex than this, you need to go back to Daniel and familiarize yourself with the 70 week prophesy and the 2300 days prophesy. This 2297.49 years are added to 3.5 years ( a time in the 1st century when the antichrist was being held back so that the gospel is preached by the apostles- it is complicated more than i can explain here)- 2297.49 + 3.5 = 2300.99, this marks the end of age as per Daniel's prophesy.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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Noose said:
The 3 1/2 years are not literal years...
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Once a person takes this ABSURD approach to Bible interpretation, fantasy takes over.

The PROOF that 3 1/2 years are LITERALLY 3 1/2 years is in the fact that this period is expressed in several other ways, so no one will come along and draw absurd conclusions. We have this period stated in Revelation 11 and 12 as "forty and two months" (42 months), "a thousand two hundred and three score days" (1260 days), or time (1 year), times (2 years) and half a time (6 months)" (3 1/2 years).

1260 days/30 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years x 2 = seven years = one heptad or week of years.
It is significant that God has set aside this specific period of 3 1/2 years for the absolute rule and control of the Antichrist and Satan on earth, after which they are judged. The Great Tribulation is assigned the remaining 3 1/2 years within that heptad.
 
tanakh

tanakh

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Amillennialists believe that the 1000 year Millennium is a symbolic figure and coincides with the Church age. They believe that Christ is reigning now from Heaven and that he will return in judgement and bring about a new Heaven and Earth.

There is some confusion between this belief and Partial Preterism which holds some similar views. Full Preterism believes that
everything relating to the end times happened in AD70
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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I wonder if around 1000-1070 AD people were expecting the end of the world. I know people were expecting it all the time at various times in the past 2019 years. For example the SDAs really believed a judgement would happen in 1844. Some preachers kept going on about rapture in 1988. We had y2K millenium scares. The JWs clearly think everyone but themselves are doomed and kept setting dates...then pushing it forward when nothing apocalyptic seemed to happen. People were sure something significant happened with zionism in 1948 and kept going on about how 40 years later in one generation it would all end. Im sure people living through world war 1 and 2 thought it would be the end.

Sometimes I think maybe the end times are just meaning the end of each persons life on earth not a collective thing. But other times I think...well the world does seem to be going to hell in a handcart. After an earthquake where hundreds or thousands of people die and entire cities are destoryed many people start believing. Maybe there is a God after all and Hes a bit mad at us!
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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Of course I hear the RCC like to believe the church age started with their church and they are the ones now ruling with Christ, and every other church that isnt RCC is just erroneous. Their doctrine is amill to the core.
 
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Noose

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Nehemiah6 said:
Once a person takes this ABSURD approach to Bible interpretation, fantasy takes over.

The PROOF that 3 1/2 years are LITERALLY 3 1/2 years is in the fact that this period is expressed in several other ways, so no one will come along and draw absurd conclusions. We have this period stated in Revelation 11 and 12 as "forty and two months" (42 months), "a thousand two hundred and three score days" (1260 days), or time (1 year), times (2 years) and half a time (6 months)" (3 1/2 years).

1260 days/30 = 42 months/12 = 3 1/2 years x 2 = seven years = one heptad or week of years.
It is significant that God has set aside this specific period of 3 1/2 years for the absolute rule and control of the Antichrist and Satan on earth, after which they are judged. The Great Tribulation is assigned the remaining 3 1/2 years within that heptad.
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It is neither absurd nor a fantasy but a reality. I'm very much aware why people take it as a literal 3.5 years set aside for future and others as literal 3.5 years that have already gone and yet others as figurative timeline. I have held to these positions before and i can tell you plainly, non is even close.

42 months/1260 days/3.5 years/ time and times and dividing of time mean the same thing in different formats but that doesn't in any way mean it is literal time set aside.

The deep meaning of these things comes from Daniel but the book of Daniel was closed until the time of the end (which basically started around the 1st century). The book was closed because it missed one key item to be used for the calculation and that is the antichrist's number 666. The book of Revelation identifies this key item and thus the book is left open now and people are even invited (Rev 13) to calculate 'the number of the beast' yet it has already been given as 666. It is said that the number is of the NAME of the beast and the term 'name' as used in the bible always means authority- so what we are supposed to calculate is the authority of the beast yet are told that he was given authority for 3.5 years but the number of his authority is 666.

This is nothing more than an invitation to do a very earthly calculation. It's like saying, find 3.5x where x=666. This gives the total years that antichrist must operate on earth before his kingdom is destroyed. This covers the last half week of Daniel's 70 weeks and we are still in it but almost done with it. But it is slightly complicated than what i have explained here.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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Ahwatukee said:
You have to remember that the word dragon/beast is used to represent 1) Satan, 2) a kingdom and 3) the ruler of that kingdom. The beast has seven heads, seven crowns and ten horns. These characteristics are mentioned in Rev.17.

Seven Heads = The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Seven Crown = There are also seven kings. (succession of kings)

Ten Horns = The ten horns you saw are ten kings (Kings ruling concurrent with the beast)

The woman riding the beast/Babylon the Great = The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

If you will notice, in Rev.13:1, John says "And I saw rising out of the sea a beast." And down in Rev.13:11 John says, "Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth.

We know that the beast rising out of the sea is the antichrist/beast. The second beast rising out of the earth is figurative of the false prophet - Rev.16:13, 19:20.

Regardless of the meaning of "sea" we have multiple scriptures stating that the beast will come up out of the Abyss, whichmeans that he is currently restricted to it. Whatever the meaning of "the sea" is, it is not going to change the fact that he comes up out of the Abyss.
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Brother, I'm not suggesting we change the meaning. Maybe they're the same thing, described in different ways.

Ahwatukee said:
1). They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon - Rev.9:11
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the king of this world's system is Satan.

Ahwatukee said:
2). When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. - Rev.11:7
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The beast controlled by the devil has always done this, kills God's people.

Ahwatukee said:
3). The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction - Rev.17:8

4). The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. - Rev.17:11

* So, the beast is an angel
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The beast is human, controlled by "the rulers of darkness" (the abyss?) in this world. When did this beast exist in the past? What does he do? Is there something similar in history which points to the last beast? He tried to unite the world in worshipping Satan against God. I think its possible this refers to back to Babel, when the people were one, and tried to reach heaven with their tower.

Ahwatukee said:
* He is currently in the Abyss

* The beast/angel is going to be released from the Abyss at the sounding of the fifth trumpet, which is when it is opened

* He is most likely going to be the power behind the antichrist who is a human being

* He is an eighth king belonging to the succession of the previous seven kings
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Maybe he comes from the darkness of this world.

Ahwatukee said:
* When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast along with the false prophet/second beast, will go to his destruction by being thrown into the lake of fire, alive - Rev.19:20
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I know. The presence of the Lord is life to us, but death to unbelievers,

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Heb.12:27

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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Lanolin said:
Of course I hear the RCC like to believe the church age started with their church and they are the ones now ruling with Christ, and every other church that isnt RCC is just erroneous. Their doctrine is amill to the core.
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I think the church started when God made Eve.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Eph.5:32
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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dcontroversal said:
Jesus was clear, so was Paul, Peter and John........it is idiotic to believe that the end came and went in 70 A.D.............the bible is to be taken in a literal sense unless CONTEXT dictates other wise........

WHEN you shall see these things come to pass LOOK UP for your redemption draws nigh.........

@Hevosmies ......You know my stance bro.....and I think it is very clear when it is viewed in an honest manner.
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I don't think it's as "idiotic" to believe the end of the "AGE" came in 70 A.D. when God's judgement fell on the covenant breakers in Jerusalem, and He took His house off the face of the earth forever doing away with the sacrificial system and the way laid down to point to Jesus. That age is done. Is it not? You can claim only idiots believe different than you, but I think the WHOLE bible fit's with this view so much better than the "waiting for Him to bring His kingdom" view. I believe He brought it and I’m in it right now, if that makes me an idiot then guilty as charged.
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Jimbone said:
I don't think it's as "idiotic" to believe the end of the "AGE" came in 70 A.D. when God's judgement fell on the covenant breakers in Jerusalem, and He took His house off the face of the earth forever doing away with the sacrificial system and the way laid down to point to Jesus. That age is done. Is it not? You can claim only idiots believe different than you, but I think the WHOLE bible fit's with this view so much better than the "waiting for Him to bring His kingdom" view. I believe He brought it and I’m in it right now, if that makes me an idiot then guilty as charged.
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Re-read an if you think the END of the AGE came in 70 A.D. bro...........then we should have had the 1000 year reign of Christ, the bema seat, Great White throne judgment of the lost, New Jerusalem on a new earth in a new heaven and NO lost or devil on the planet....the mark of the beast, the 1st and 2nd beast should have came and went, the sun should have been darkened the moon not giving light and the heavens ripped open and burnt......

I will say it again....IT is IDIOTIC to believe or think the END OF THE AGE came and WENT in 70 A.D.

Surely you are wiser than that migo.....and you do understand that the word AGE is translated WORLD in the KING JAMES>....so I am speaking of the END of the WORLD......NOT Jerusalem and what was left of the Israelite kingdom....which by the way stood again in 1947-48
 
Hevosmies

Hevosmies

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Jimbone said:
but I think the WHOLE bible fit's with this view so much better than the "waiting for Him to bring His kingdom" view. I believe He brought it and I’m in it right now, if that makes me an idiot then guilty as charged.
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Hi Jimbone. Are you amill?

Wehn did the kingdom come? PentecosT?
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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dcontroversal said:
Re-read an if you think the END of the AGE came in 70 A.D. bro...........then we should have had the 1000 year reign of Christ, the bema seat, Great White throne judgment of the lost, New Jerusalem on a new earth in a new heaven and NO lost or devil on the planet....the mark of the beast, the 1st and 2nd beast should have came and went, the sun should have been darkened the moon not giving light and the heavens ripped open and burnt......

I will say it again....IT is IDIOTIC to believe or think the END OF THE AGE came and WENT in 70 A.D.

Surely you are wiser than that migo.....and you do understand that the word AGE is translated WORLD in the KING JAMES>....so I am speaking of the END of the WORLD......NOT Jerusalem and what was left of the Israelite kingdom....which by the way stood again in 1947-48
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Then I'm that idiot like I said. I believe that all happen, I believe Jesus is SEATED at Gods right hand until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. I do not believe that Jesus is king now, .........but not yet. I do not believe His kingdom will be an earthly kingdom He has yet to bring, that if He brought it like you suggest, it would be something we could point to and say "there it is" which He specifically tells us can't be the case. You're still thinking of an earthly kingdom just like the Jews back then did. Wrongly.

I believe He said His kingdom was "at hand" when He was here, and believe all was fulfilled with His judgement on the covenant breakers and the end of that age. I believe this view fits His word FAR better that and "now but not yet", waiting for the world to "go to hell in a hand basket", "please snatch me out of my underwear Jesus", interpretation. I believe Jesus is ruling RIGHT NOW with all authority, as a matter of fact I believe I felt that "rod of iron" a bit this week due to my own mistakes. I believe His kingdom is here, and like He told us His kingdom will be like the mustard seed, and like the leaven threw the 3 measures of meal, His kingdom will be ever expanding and will know no end until EVERYTHING is under His feet. This is when He presents the perfected creation to the Father and dwells with us forever, but for now we are to "go, make disciples of all nations". That said we can disagree on this and still love Jesus and be saved.

This view has open my eyes, set my heart on fire, and kept me so overflowing with His Spirit that it pours out no matter who I'm talking to, or where I'm at. This is why I have to share it, but I truly don't ever want it to divide me from anyone though. I think eschatology can have a HUGE impact on how we approach everything, but I go to a church that believes just like you. I've believed the same thing as well, but He guided me to my view now, and while I do think it's truth and fits everything so much better that any other option, and will always proclaim it unashamed, I will never waste too much time or effort trying to debate it. I've been taught this view you believe ad nauseam, and I understand the charts, and the gathering and stringing together of scripture to explain it clearly. :cautious:

Honestly I was really more pointing out the way you called anyone that disagrees with you "idiotic". I find that a little off putting, but maybe only because I'm the idiot, if I agreed with you I'd get a pat on the back and a high five I'm sure.
 
Jimbone

Jimbone

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Hevosmies said:
Hi Jimbone. Are you amill?

Wehn did the kingdom come? PentecosT?
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I believe the true "end of the Age" was completed when God judged the covenant breakers, and took His temple off the earth in 70 A.D.
I believe Pentecost was the start of His kingdom entering into the world in power. I obviously fall into the amil group, but I don't have a "label" and I absolutely HATE dividing into clubs, because I never believe everything the label suggest I do, and I find myself being accused of and asked to defend things I never said I believe. That said I can't deny I fall somewhere in there, but I don't want to divide, only listen to what you believe and share what I believe, if anyone ask about it.
 
G

garee

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Hevosmies said:
2 corinthians 4:18 must be your favorite verse lol, you always quote it.

What leads you to suggest Revelation 20 is only a parable? I agree the book of revelation is symbolic, but its symbolic of a REALITY. For example: candlesticks is symbolic of...... church. we know this from the book itself.

Just like Revelation 20. Nobody is suggesting the devil is a literal dragon and a snake thats going to be bound with a metal chain somewhere. Atleast im not. But what i am suggesting is that being bound and sealed itno the bottomless pit symbolizes the devil being rendered ineffective so that he can no longer deceive the nations.
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2 Corinthians 4:18 is a principle given to us to help unlock the mysteries of the unseen things of faith .it does seem to get overlooked according to my bias.

The parable in Revelation 20 is in respect to the signified language of the whole book Revelation verse 1 setting the stage for the whole interpretation of the Holy Spirit.There we can see that not only is it inspired but is also signified, the language of parables.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

The signifiers.... chains, dragons, bottom less pit, beheaded souls, mark on hand or forehead or literal thousand years. they must be looked at as through parables (poetic language of God) seeing without parables Christ spoke not .Christ hid the spiritual understanding by which God makes manifold his unseen understanding.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Romans 1:19-20

Understood by the things that are made, not the very things he has made this corrupted creation But rather through ...2 Corinthians 4:18
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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Hevosmies said:
I thought he was bound though? still blinding the minds of unbelievers, deceiving the nations! OY VEY!
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I'm not deceived anymore.

For who is powerful enough to enter the house of a strong man like Satan and plunder his goods? Only someone even stronger—someone who could tie him up and then plunder his house. Mt.12:29

Thank you Lord Jesus!
 
maxwel

maxwel

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Noose said:
There's no point of arguing, non of the groups is right (amill/Mill/preterits) and you don't need to go to pastor X for an explanation, you need to ask for understanding from God.

The 3 1/2 years are not literal years, it is an earthly equation that can be solved by man using normal earthly Mathematical laws- that's why Rev 13 says "..it is the number of a man...let he who has wisdom count/calculate the number of the beast..".
It doesn't mean that it is a man (flesh & bones), it simply means it is a timeline calculable using normal earthly mathematical equation.

And the equation posed is this: the beast is given authority for 3.5 years yet the number of the beast is 666, so the total authority in years is 3.5 x 666 =2331 years.
Convert it back to our calendar years and you'll get 2297.49 years. But it is somehow complex than this, you need to go back to Daniel and familiarize yourself with the 70 week prophesy and the 2300 days prophesy. This 2297.49 years are added to 3.5 years ( a time in the 1st century when the antichrist was being held back so that the gospel is preached by the apostles- it is complicated more than i can explain here)- 2297.49 + 3.5 = 2300.99, this marks the end of age as per Daniel's prophesy.
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It sounds as if you came up with this entirely on your own... without any teacher.

A. Did you get this formula from some teacher? If so, please tell us who.
B. Did you come up with this entirely on your own?

...
 
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Noose

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maxwel said:
It sounds as if you came up with this entirely on your own... without any teacher.

A. Did you get this formula from some teacher? If so, please tell us who.
B. Did you come up with this entirely on your own?

...
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Not from any teacher but i can confirm that finally i have the understanding. Struggled with many positions for so many years and gave up - that's when i started getting the understanding.

Simple- The question is in Daniel and the answer is also in Daniel but the key ingredient to calculating it is in Revelation.
The issue has never been identifying a person but understanding the times (timeline), those waiting to identify a person or see certain features have already missed the mark by far, we are deep into these things, very deep, we are almost done with.

Like the angel in Daniel said, "..it shall be 2300 evenings and mornings and everything shall be restored..". 2300 AD it is, trust me.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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Jimbone said:
Then I'm that idiot like I said. I believe that all happen, I believe Jesus is SEATED at Gods right hand until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. I do not believe that Jesus is king now, .........but not yet. I do not believe His kingdom will be an earthly kingdom He has yet to bring, that if He brought it like you suggest, it would be something we could point to and say "there it is" which He specifically tells us can't be the case. You're still thinking of an earthly kingdom just like the Jews back then did. Wrongly.

I believe He said His kingdom was "at hand" when He was here, and believe all was fulfilled with His judgement on the covenant breakers and the end of that age. I believe this view fits His word FAR better that and "now but not yet", waiting for the world to "go to hell in a hand basket", "please snatch me out of my underwear Jesus", interpretation. I believe Jesus is ruling RIGHT NOW with all authority, as a matter of fact I believe I felt that "rod of iron" a bit this week due to my own mistakes. I believe His kingdom is here, and like He told us His kingdom will be like the mustard seed, and like the leaven threw the 3 measures of meal, His kingdom will be ever expanding and will know no end until EVERYTHING is under His feet. This is when He presents the perfected creation to the Father and dwells with us forever, but for now we are to "go, make disciples of all nations". That said we can disagree on this and still love Jesus and be saved.

This view has open my eyes, set my heart on fire, and kept me so overflowing with His Spirit that it pours out no matter who I'm talking to, or where I'm at. This is why I have to share it, but I truly don't ever want it to divide me from anyone though. I think eschatology can have a HUGE impact on how we approach everything, but I go to a church that believes just like you. I've believed the same thing as well, but He guided me to my view now, and while I do think it's truth and fits everything so much better that any other option, and will always proclaim it unashamed, I will never waste too much time or effort trying to debate it. I've been taught this view you believe ad nauseam, and I understand the charts, and the gathering and stringing together of scripture to explain it clearly. :cautious:

Honestly I was really more pointing out the way you called anyone that disagrees with you "idiotic". I find that a little off putting, but maybe only because I'm the idiot, if I agreed with you I'd get a pat on the back and a high five I'm sure.
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What about the time when Jesus actually has put everything under his feet and takes up residence in the New Jerusalem. Just wondering what you believe about that, whther He still has a heart for his homeland and chosen people. So e people say well the narion of isrel isnt that its been 'replaced' and that covenant was completely broken. That promised land is not that piece of land in the middle east. Its desolate. But then How do you explain whats hppening there. People are speaking Gods language there. They are studying scriputres. Some are looking forward to their Messiah, some already know Him. Why would God forsake His people? I dont think He has.

If my people, who are called by my name, turn from their wicked ways and humble themselves and pray, then I will from heaven I will forgive their sin and I will heal their land.

Do you see that right now? Go to israel, look at the land. Is it the overflowing with milk and honey? Hardly! Its divded, people are still fighting, Its still got a long way to go.
 
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