What would it take to "drain the swamp"?

Am I supposed to know your history? I've been a member here 2 days.

I would completely fail to see what "Christian" agenda Sanders or Clinton would have when there seems to be no factors that would indicate either one of them being Christians. Donald, I have no clue and when you just toss in handles like "Liz," or "Susan" how are we supposed to even know who you are talking about?

I am not advocating the support of any political party. The Bible upholds the truth of the Gospel as the most important directive. And since no issue one can name can be removed from the Gospel, that includes lies fomented by political movements.

I'll make a note to give you a wide berth because there is no "love" in the above quote.

If he were an insider, he would not receive near the amount of grief from his own stated party as he does. He wasn't the candidate the upper echelon in the GOP wanted and they have treated him as such. You vote for who the GOP elite tell you to, whether they are the choice of the people or not. They did it with McCain. They did it with Romney. They very much wanted to do it this time around with Jeb Bush. Which would have resulted in a gigantic thud of Failure. Trump said exactly what a huge chunk of disenfranchised Americans, (much, much larger than the Left wants you to know) wanted to hear. He plugged into their anger, and he plugged into their feeling that they had no voice in a climate that, at that time, was growing more shrill by the day that you either went the Liberal way or you got kicked off the playground. Accept abortion. Accept homosexuality. Love Islam. Racism is everywhere. All cops are evil. Open borders. All men are evil. All white people are evil. Stop being a Christian. Money is evil unless I'm the one who's got it. This is the endless tirade we heard from the Left for 8 years, in increasing frequency every week. People were sick of it and Trump realized that. He used it to his advantage. And since the Left never learn from their mistakes, they are doubling down on the rhetoric and calling America stupid for still failing to buy it. You don't get people to vote for you by telling them they are stupid. That didn't work for either party in 2017.

I am not a Trump supporter, and I did not vote for him, based on some moral issues in his past. I also did not vote for Hillary because no one who supports abortion, homosexuality, or today's Liberalism, in general, will ever get my vote. I have no doubt that Trump loves America. I don't know that the term "patriot" applies, because he often says what he thinks people want to hear. That makes it difficult to glean when he is sincere and when he is not. I think he has done some good things since taking office. The one thing he has not done, which he promised to do immediately, is repeal AFCA. I also virulently disagree with his decision to take absolutely no action when it comes to the death of Jamal Khashoggi at the hands of the Saudis. What he isn't doing is putting people on plantations, locking women in closets, or doing anything remotely racist, even though the Left, and Hollywood says he is.

Trump frightens the Left for one singular reason. It isn't because he is a good speaker, he isn't. It isn't because of any deeply-held convictions, although I am sure some of them are. It isn't because he claims to be a Conservative. Trump scares the Left because he actually fights back. They aren't used to that because the GOP, the party without a functioning spine, hasn't bothered to do that for a couple of decades now. The GOP talks a lot about moral issues like abortion, and how horrible it is, but if you notice, they never actually do anything about it. The one thing Trump likes more than anything is winning. At anything. So when the Left opposes him, he will fight them tooth and nail, simply because they oppose him. The left isn't used to that and that angers them more than anything else. You don't fight the Left. That isn't allowed. You do things their way or you get escorted out of the building and banned from ever re-entering. That is what the entire "Russian collusion" non-issue is about. Trump wasn't supposed to win, Hillary was. All of it is punishment, and a large portion of sour grapes because they didn't get their way. One thing to always remember when examining anything the Left does: It is a movement based completely on Self. Everything they advocate, at it's core, is amoral.

Am I supposed to know your history? I've been a member here 2 days.

I would completely fail to see what "Christian" agenda Sanders or Clinton would have when there seems to be no factors that would indicate either one of them being Christians. Donald, I have no clue and when you just toss in handles like "Liz," or "Susan" how are we supposed to even know who you are talking about?

I am not advocating the support of any political party. The Bible upholds the truth of the Gospel as the most important directive. And since no issue one can name can be removed from the Gospel, that includes lies fomented by political movements.

I'll make a note to give you a wide berth because there is no "love" in the above quote.

I apologize. I just got tired of political addenda's being quarreled over for about 9 months. I'm a sinner too. I'm sorry.
As far as Christian agendas go I doubt if anyone I mentioned have one, except as a means for getting votes and filling their pockets. Liz is Elizabeth Warren a Senator(D) from Massachusetts and Susan is Susan Collins a Senator (R) from Maine. Liz wants not only to increase taxes on the rich but to tax their already accumulated wealth too. Susan want to replace Social Security numbers with PIN numbers.

I was looking for alternative candidates for 2020. I'm disgusted.

Why do Christians always look to see how moral a leader is, politics is about public policy, when Christians make the debate about morality it fails every time.

For a Christian, there are not may issues that can be viewed outside of a moral standpoint. The fact that some people believe they can support politics and politicians that are amoral and support things God forbids while believing they can divorce those politics from their Christianity shows that there is a huge problem there. There is never an excuse, or an out for supporting things God forbids.

The reason morals is such an imperative in politics is because, by and large, amoral people do not make good leaders.

Well I disagree strongly on this point but I respect what you are saying since I thought this way as well for a time, but sadly this viewpoint has lead to the slow demise of the Republic.

We live in a fallen world, the writers of the constitution knew this, therefore the focus and the lens is not the man and personal morality but on the rule of law, the constitution and "we the people"

The left has very cleverly shifted the "evangelicals" away form this focus and making it about individual morality so now believers have been displaced where they once held influence and sway.

Who can a Christian vote for they are all sinners?

When morality is the metric then one lie is a problem and you are right?

It is such a sad thing when the founding fathers known this could happen and tried to ensure that the focus would stay on the constitution, not about creating a theocracy, for years I have watched evengelicals fall into every trap set for them and now they have made themselves irrelevant to the political process.

It wasn't the Left. Evangelical's themselves did a slow creep away from morality and orthodoxy, that is still on-going, by slowly dismissing the importance of morality and personal responsibility when it comes to the individual. When you see a person voting for someone who thinks legalized murder of unborn children is a God-given right, that's a problem, and it comes from a huge spiritual disconnect. When you see that same person justifying that same choice by saying "who I vote for isn't connected to my relationship with God", you have an even bigger problem. Because once you start skipping down that moral relativism trail, you can justify any amoral behavior. Homosexuality? Sure. Adultery? Why not. I'm sure God didn't really mean we couldn't sleep around. Murder? I'm cool with that, as long as it doesn't affect me. Since Roe vs. Wade, America has murdered more unborn children than were killed in the Holocaust. It happens every single day. Meanwhile, most Americans yawn when the subject is brought up and move on with their lives because it doesn't affect them, and they can't be bothered with it. Even Christians, which should be working hard to stop the problem. Not because it violates scripture, because it does, but because morally, it's wrong, resuland innocent people are suffering as a result. This entire problem occurred because Christians began thinking their morality and values were not connected to their Christianity and they stopped expecting the people they vote for to have moral character. That's how we've ended up with the morally-compromised people we've had for the last 20 years.

"Who can a Christian vote for they are all sinners?"

By that logic there could be absolutely no people in a person's life that could fill any leadership position. Including pastoring a church, because even Pastors sin. It has nothing to do with a theocracy. I don't support a theocracy. I don't expect a political leader to fulfill any spiritual needs for me, or anyone else. But I do expect them to possess certain moral values that guarantee they won't pursue policies and actions that are obviously morally wrong. And if those actions violate scripture, a Christian cannot vote for that person, otherwise, you are supporting what that person advocates by default, just as surely as if you were handing out flyers for it on a street corner. There is no wiggle room there at all, for a Christian, no matter what any rationalizer might say. I am not talking about the secular world. I don't expect them to make moral-based decisions and I expect them to vote for someone that is hugely compromised, like Hillary Clinton, because they don't know any better. But I don't expect to see a self-proclaimed Christian stumping for that kind of candidate, because there is no way they can, and still support the concept biblically.

Well, I think you missed my point, perhaps I was not clear.

Engagement shouldn’t be optional for Christians in a nation such as the United States founded upon Christian principles and morality.

Christians have withdrawn from the sphere of public influence and then they are shocked at the result.

Never did I advocate for moral relativism.

My point is this, some people here on CC, point to all of the president"s moral failings in his private life, that is the wrong approach to our civic duty.

The correct lens is the candidate looking to implement an agenda that is contrary to, or seeks to significantly reshape the Constitution, and the very nature of the government away from a Republic?

Privately no one can pass the test.

In my view, a citizen if he/she cares about their freedoms they has an obligation to preserve, protect and defend them.

To throw up our hands and say "we are powerless in the face of this evil" are exactly the words that Satan's wants to hear.

Yes much damage has been done, yet change for good can still happen, anyone who has studied history knows this to be the case.

I want to make it clear that I am in no way saying that you, personally, advocate moral relativism.

Trump has some gigantic moral failings. Traditionally, he has supported abortion, to the point of hosting banquets for PP. He didn't start saying he was against abortion until he slipped on a conservative vest for the election. So I am dubious that he wishes to do something about abortion, and I will remain dubious until he actual does something. When it comes to women, he is abusive in the same vein Bill Clinton was. Being pro-abortion and abusing women, in one's personal life, preclude a Christian from being able to vote for that candidate. That isn't an opinion. Those are moral failings that render such a candidate non-votable for a Christian. If you are saying that these are gray areas because everyone is a sinner, then that would also mean that since a voter cannot pass a morality test, that would mean they cannot even vote at all. I can draw the line at not voting for a candidate that supports abortion and gay rights because I openly condemn those two things, as every Christian should, and I do not practice them. Nor do I support people that practice them. The Bible does not support these things either, no hypocrisy there.

A Christians first responsibility is to care about the Gospel. In a Christian's world the Gospel is supposed to be the Sun that everything else orbits around. I'm not charged to protect "freedom." I am charged to preach the Gospel. I have never said we are "powerless." I do not advocate a theocracy, but if Christians truly value moral values, and want them preserved in their country, you don't vote for people that will obviously do everything they can to erode and erase those same values. To do so you shoot yourself in the foot.

Well, it would seem you cannot separate out a fallen world, a world that is actually not under the old testament law, but the rule of secular law, and our role as those under grace.

I do not place the gospel below freedom, however, having had direct contact with those who have fled repressive regimes of

Communist 1970's Russia and Fascist Italy, I do value personal freedom of speech and liberty that western society still maintains,

albeit tenuously.

My parents lived through tyranny and oppression so I understand it very well.

Each day, I am so thankful that God has shown me how blessed we have been and I do not take it for granted.
Be thankful you can go in the streets and protest abortion this day, some day you may not.

I am quite able to separate the fallen secular world from the segment of it that either is Christian, or claims to be Christian. Those are the actual degrees of separation:

The Fallen, Un-redeemed World.

The Christian World.

The segment of the world that claims to be Christian but embraces secular "values."

I do not expect the fallen world to act with morality. But I am not required, nor am I supposed to, support their lack of values. As a Christian, I am supposed to illustrate their lack of morality. It is not a values vs. lack of values issue. For Christians, it is a matter of internal spiritual integrity. If a person who claims to be a Christian is voting for any candidate that supports something God condemns or forbids, fallen world vs. Christian world has nothing to do with it. There is a problem with the person's spiritual integrity.

The words “drain the swamp” are a part of the current political discussion. We may not all agree on what this proverbial “swamp” is. According to my understanding, it means getting rid of politicians and bureaucrats who are doing more harm than good.

A Democrat may think that Republicans are the “swamp”. Republicans may think that Democrats are the “swamp”.

Are “swamps” exclusive to the American political situation?

It seems that there is something wrong with the political situation that exists south of the American borders where drug cartels, human traffickers,gang members, and corruption seems to have its way without any real system of checks and balances. So, many of us do not want the Mexican “swamp” to become integrated with the American swamp.

China has its form of oppression and human exploitation that is used to promote unfair international trade practices. China has a big time “swamp” that has been confronted by our current president.

Russia is ruled by an oligarchy with a bunch of cronies in their “swamp”.

There are numerous examples.

Are there cultural factors that accompany the creation of a swamp? Are there moral factors that accompany the creation of a swamp? Are there spiritual factors that accompany the creation of a swamp? Can the definition of "swamp" be expanded to include a variety of scenarios?

In the Bible, we find various cultures that were eliminated because of an entire society that had forgotten about God.

The world was flooded during the time of Noah because of rampant immorality. A “swamp” was wiped out by a flood.

The Tower of Babel was destroyed because the entire population of the earth was consumed with the desire to build a man made utopia that excluded God. Perhaps the “swamp” of secular humanism that existed at Babel did not get drained, but it did get scattered.

Sodom was destroyed due to sexual immorality and rampant homosexuality. The “swamp” of Sodom and Gamorrah had become intolerable to the Lord.

God told Joshua to exterminate the Canaanites; who were sacrificing their children to idols. The Lord did not want His chosen people to inhabit a swamp that was polluted with idols and the shedding of innocent blood that accompanied the worship of these idols.

Are there cultural, societal, and political equivalents to Babel, Sodom, and Canaan in the world (and in our country) today? Absolutely.

It seems evident to me that a number of “swamps” got drained in Old Testament times.

It is also apparent that every swamp (political, societal, and cultural) in this world will be drained when Jesus returns to rule and reign. This series of events will be cataclysmic. Many will not survive and even the topography of the earth will be altered.

In the meantime, what can we do now, in this day and age, to drain a bunch of political, cultural, and societal “swamps” that are an unfortunate part of our existence?

I don’t know the answers to this question. I suppose that we can all endeavor to be informed and to be a part of the solution as opposed to being a part of the problem.

Don’t be a creature of the “swamp”.

The question is, should we even try?