It was unfair to mankind

pottersclay · Feb 11, 2019

What you call unfair is truth of God's word. Wouldn't you like to know that the state you are in was not the state you were intended to be in???
Satan has robbed you and kept you for a ramson. He is a thief and a murderer. Adams decision to disobey is inherited through out mankind. In other words we would of all made the same mistake. We are made from the same dirt.
Sin has to and will be punished. God said "least you shall die" "the wages of sin is death". That was God's design from the beginning.
There is none righteous no not one.... throughout mankind not one person was found to be worthy to enter in the kingdom. Not one.
Of all the religions, obeying the law, what ever the attempt it's as filthy rags to the Lord.
We have and serve a Holy God not just a God. Being the creator there's a design.
We duplicate Adams sin every day "did God say?. I think God was very gracious to tell us the truth, to let us know there's more to life than this.
You can blame Adam if you want but you would of and do make the same decisions as him.
The serpent has tricked us all...all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. He has a 100% track record. That's why you need to be born again.

Hevosmies · Feb 11, 2019

I dont know about you but I DONT WANT GOD TO BE "FAIR" with me!

I dont DESERVE salvation.

Grace by definition is "UNFAIR" from the human perspective because it cant be MERITED.

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2019

gerjozen said:

It does no good to simply cite a verse that seems contradictory. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. I can show you how Rom.5:12 goes perfectly with Deu.24:16.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom.5:12

He isn't saying Adam transferred his sin to us. He's saying by knowledge of good and evil, we began doing evil. This becomes plain as Paul goes on,

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom.5:13

"Imputed" means "reckoned." Now listen carefully. Commentators interpret "imputed" to mean "reckon, or charge to ones account." But that can't be what Paul means, because before the law, God destroyed sinners with a flood, so he did charge sin to mans account.

By "imputed", Paul means sin wasn't "reckoned" as a direct violation of any command of God, and this is apparent by Paul's next statement,

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom.5:14

He's saying, Even though Adams children received no direct word or command God (like Adam did) they still had conscience of right and wrong and died for their own wrongdoing.

Read Rom.2:14-15 and you'll see what I'm telling you is true. We are guilty for our own sin, not someone else's.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 11, 2019

Journeyman said:

where do you get that teaching from?

sounds like some kind of misunderstanding of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

anyway, you are wrong

how can all have sinned if there was no law? explain that

I mean you are staring right at the fact that sin entered by one man...Adam...not knowledge

can't make this up

Deade · Feb 11, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Just where in scripture did you find this evidence that says says babies, children and mentally incapable are covered by the blood?

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

I just showed you how and you're ignoring it. I just told you to read Rom.2:14-15 where Paul plainly said, gentiles sin without the law.

Children learned good and evil, from their parents, beginning with Adam and Eve, down to Moses, who received direct word from God.

Until Moses, humans had conscience of good and evil and God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their sins, nobody else's.

And since you disagree, you tell me why Deu.24:16 isn't true.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 11, 2019

Journeyman said:

phibitt!

hey...you are not teacher and I always ignore what is not biblical

been at this thing a long time...and basically heard while not quite all, more than you

you ignored what people are saying to you...so? are we all even now?

I would still be interested in where you get this from.....

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

I got it from the Bible. Here's your question,

7seasrekeyed said:

Here's your answer,

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12

Its the knowledge inherited or passed on by Adam, not the sin of Adam. This meshes perfectly with the rest of scripture. If you still disagree, tell me why Deu.24:16 isn't true.

7seasrekeyed · Feb 11, 2019

Journeyman said:

well, the verses are from the Bible, but what you say about them is not

knowledge is not evil. the more I know the more I understand and the more I know and understand, the more I shut up and listen...to what is true and what is biblical. it made sense then and makes sense now

you on the other hand, not so much

how bout you tell me where you got this teaching

3rd time I ask I believe? I asked first (if we are playing that game, then let's play)

BillG · Feb 11, 2019

Hevosmies said:

A couple of things come to mind here.

Now some may slap me here on this thought.

You do deserve salvation because Jesus died and paid the price for your salvation.
When placed your faith in him and made him Lord of your life God declared you not guilty, so you do deserve what he has given you.

As a result she would want God to be fair with us.
If he was not then he would not discipline us when we mess up.
That way we know we are his children.
It would be unfair if he did not.

Grace is unfair and cannot be merited. I agree.
If it could then Jesus would not have to have died for us.

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

Then all you need to do is explain how Rom2:12 contradict Deu.24:16

7seasrekeyed · Feb 11, 2019

well that's the problem with your thinking

you want to do a mashup on scriptures to suit your erroneous conclusions

that's ok.....we will try to help

MattforJesus · Feb 11, 2019

gerjozen said:

The Bible says that the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones, for babies are born innocent with no sin on their record, and are protected spiritually.

That is because the sin of Adam is not applied to us for that is his sin, and we are not responsible for the sins of other people, for everybody will bear their own sins.

It would of never entered Adam and Eve's mind to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil unless an outside source tempted them, so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve, which she said that they could not eat of the tree because that is all she could think and know, but Satan tempted her that if she ate of the tree she would be greater than her current position, and she sinned, and then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him she did not die, and Adam sinned.

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree then they had a choice between good and evil, so all their offspring would then be born with a choice, and Eve is the mother of all living.

It is choice that we inherited, and Adam and Eve were created knowing God, but all their offspring are born with a choice, so they are born not knowing God, so they will do evil before they do good to repent of their sins, and follow God..

So we all have sinned, done the act of sin, and come short of the glory of God.

Which babies are born innocent because Adam and Eve's sin does not affect them, and they have not done the act of a sin, but will do evil before they repent and follow God, so everybody ends up a sinner in need of salvation.

But it is not our fault for us being born in which we will do evil for it cannot be avoided for we are born not knowing God, but there still is no excuse for when we get older we still have to do good for we know to do good.

Which creation testifies of a God that created all things, and of His attributes, which one of them is love of people, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse, and testifies of the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people.

So the 2 greatest laws are known whether a person has heard the word of God, or not.

Journeyman · Feb 11, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

Already fits my view. Here it is again,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20

Go ahead, explain it.

dcontroversal · Feb 11, 2019

Deade said:

Deductive reasoning based upon David speaking of his salvation in the present tense and hi saying that he would go to and see his week old son that had died and Paul's verbiage of being ALIVE without the law once and at some point the law and sin revived and he died<----he was alive physically when he said this happened and when he wrote this so there is only one other option, that being he died spiritually....Jesus also said to suffer the little children to come unto him for such is the kingdom of God.....

God is just......if David's child would have died lost and went to hell he would not have been able to say that he would GO TO THAT CHILD and SEE HIM AGAIN.........that was inspired.....

Guojing · Feb 11, 2019

When Paul used the term sin, it is almost always a noun and not a verb. It’s about sin as a nature and not an action.

Deade · Feb 11, 2019

dcontroversal said:

That is a lot of assumption and weak reasoning. David's inspiration could be pointing to a far different time. I had a stillborn son in 1972, full term. It was hard for we had been trying for 5 years. Jesus spoke a lot of the last day when He would raise some people. I believe this is when he will have his chance: Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Rev. 20:5 suggest all the rest (not of the first resurrection) will be raised from the dead after the millennium. We think of a judgment as a court hearing where the people are paraded in front of the deciding parties and sentence is passed if found guilty. Read about the judgment:

Rev. 20:11-15 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So, where is Satan during this time: (NIV) Rev. 20:7-10 "Then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

These two incidents are concurrent, we need to think of a judgment like in the book of Judges. That is, a period of time when the people are tried and tested by demons they must overcome. I think Isaiah 65 has a picture of this time:

Isaiah 65:17-25 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. And the things before will not be remembered, nor come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and I will rejoice in My people; and the voice of weeping will no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying be heard in her. There will not be an infant, nor an old man that has not filled his days. For the child will die a hundred years old; but the sinner who is a hundred years old will be despised. And they will build houses and live in them; and they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They will not build, and another live in them; they will not plant, and another eat. For like the days of a tree are the days of My people, and My elect will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain, nor bring forth for terror. For they are the seed of the beloved of Jehovah, and their offspring with them. And it will be, before they call I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the food of the snake. They will not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah." It appears the "little season" is 100 years. The babies, small children and the ignorant of Christ's work will have their chance to serve God and grow godly character.

dcontroversal · Feb 11, 2019

Deade said:

That is a lot of assumption and weak reasoning. David's inspiration could be pointing to a far different time. I had a stillborn son in 1972, full term. It was hard for we had been trying for 5 years. Jesus spoke a lot of the last day when He would raise some people. I believe this is when he will have his chance: Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Rev. 20:5 suggest all the rest (not of the first resurrection) will be raised from the dead after the millennium. We think of a judgment as a court hearing where the people are paraded in front of the deciding parties and sentence is passed if found guilty. Read about the judgment:

Rev. 20:11-15 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So, where is Satan during this time: (NIV) Rev. 20:7-10 "Then the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

These two incidents are concurrent, we need to think of a judgment like in the book of Judges. That is, a period of time when the people are tried and tested by demons they must overcome. I think Isaiah 65 has a picture of this time:

Isaiah 65:17-25 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. And the things before will not be remembered, nor come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and I will rejoice in My people; and the voice of weeping will no more be heard in her, nor the voice of crying be heard in her. There will not be an infant, nor an old man that has not filled his days. For the child will die a hundred years old; but the sinner who is a hundred years old will be despised. And they will build houses and live in them; and they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They will not build, and another live in them; they will not plant, and another eat. For like the days of a tree are the days of My people, and My elect will long enjoy the work of their hands. They will not labor in vain, nor bring forth for terror. For they are the seed of the beloved of Jehovah, and their offspring with them. And it will be, before they call I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the food of the snake. They will not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says Jehovah." It appears the "little season" is 100 years. The babies, small children and the ignorant of Christ's work will have their chance to serve God and grow godly character.

My assessment was valid.......his words were clear and there is no indication he was speaking of a far different time.....and regardless.....the point in and of it's self is VALID....NO ONE gets a second chance after death........David SEEING his SON and GOING to HIM again proves the point.....the child was innocent, had no ability to make conscience decision and was safe under the blood.....and for the record...I have lost two children myself to muscular dystrophy

tourist · Feb 11, 2019

7seasrekeyed said:

That is an excellent idea creating a bible verse mash-up thread.

Deade · Feb 11, 2019

Subhumanoidal said:

I don't agree that the question is unanswerable. I believe scripture answers it quite well without damaging one's faith. My take: It goes back to the forbidden fruit.

I believe the forbidden fruit tree has a physical and a symbolic component to it. And yes, the fruit actually opened their eyes. God knew they would partake and He knew they had before He even asked. Their guilty consciences made them aware of their nakedness.

What the symbolism boils down to is defining the original sin. That is deciding right from wrong, or good and evil if you will, for themselves instead of trusting God. I believe that was Satan's sin also. He probably said something like why is this evil, just because God says so? Not trusting God's truths is what leads to unbelief.

So, by God imputing us all sinful right from the start meant He didn't have to wait until we actually sinned. Which we would eventually. That was very clever of God, imputing sin to Adam's descendants so He would only have to rescue us once.

Rom. 5:12-14: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Here is the justification:

Rom. 5:18, 19: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

God is in the process of ridding the universe of evil. He is demonstrating how evil will end things in the long run. Satan and the fallen angels started this, but God is going to finish it while showing us a few things. When it is all done, God is going to prove we should have listened to His decision of what is good and what is evil.

It was unfair to mankind

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