Can I change reality with my words?

So, finally getting around to posting this.


Look at the context of Isa. 53:5-6 (And do not leave off verse 6, because it is important in context!) It is about SIN!! Not about healing. Even the Septuagint acknowledges that. Israel was sin sick and needed "healing!" Healing from what? Let's look at the verses again.

"But he was pierced for our transgressions;

he was crushed for our iniquities;

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

and with his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray;

we have turned—every one—to his own way;

and the Lord has laid on him

the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:5-6


Let's see the main words:

transgressions

iniquities

chastisement

gone astray

turned our own way

the iniquity of us all.

These words are all about sin - rebellion, iniquity. You can't just pluck out the 4th line of one verse out and claim it is about healing, when all the surrounding verses, in fact all of Isa. 53 is about sin, and the Messiah and the atonement saving us from our sins. Besides, it the worst of hermeneutics, or Bible interpretation to make a doctrine out of a 1/4 of a verse. It is bound to be wrong, if you cannot find it many times in the Bible, when in an in-context verses.

Then, there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.

""He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV"

Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.

bore our sins

die to sin

live to righteousness.

So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24.

Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!

In fact, if you read Isa. 53 and those verses in context, here are the verses that finish that chapter on the suffering Messiah. What are they about?

They are about salvation from sin and evil!
"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa. 53:10-12

Please see that these verses in Isaiah 53 clearly are about sin. Not a single word about healing! This is the message, Isaiah never would have thought of it being about a heretical doctrine in the late 20th and 21st century, and people interpreting these verses to be about healing! That is context, and context is the most important thing, when you are interpreting the Bible. Read all of Isaiah 53, and realize it goes together. One part of one verse, talking about healing, in the context of talking about healing of our spiritual sins, means those "wounds" are sin and death. Not my metaphor, but Isaiah's. And Peter's! (I forgot to mention that Isaiah 53:4, was already changed by the translators of the Septuagint, LXX 300 years before Jesus. These people knew ancient Hebrew and early Koine Greek better than any modern scholar, I am sure, because they spoke those languages every day. Plus, the LXX is actually a better version than the Masoretic text, which was made between 800-1000 AD. That's right, no existing manuscripts from Isaiah's day, up to the present. But a lot of LXX extant manuscripts!

And if you really want to know what the word WOUND means to Isaiah, then read the whole book of Isaiah. Because the opening chapter explains this prophecy is to a "diseased" (spiritually) and unrighteous and sinful Israel.

"1 The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 Hear me, you heavens! Listen, earth! For the Lord has spoken:
“I reared children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knows its master,
the donkey its owner’s manger,
but Israel does not know,
my people do not understand.”
4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with olive oil." Isa. 1:1-6

Note verse 6 actually talks about the things that promoted healing, in those days! It was cleansing, bandages and olive oil. No mention of praying to heal the sickness, because it was plain to Isaiah and his readers, that the book of Isaiah, introduced in Isaiah 1, is above corruption, forsaking the Lord, rebellion, evil doing and sin! The entire prophecy is to Israel, so that they will hear about the Messiah, who will heal their diseased and sin sick land. Note verses 1 and 3! To Judah, Jerusalem, and in verse 3 - Israel. And all those painful things were to do with the sin-sick land of Israel. Not to us! The plain meaning of the text, is the original meaning of the text, to Israel. (Although certainly we can then apply this to the sin sickness in our lands, today, of we are careful!) Jesus came to heal us of our sins. There is no other way Isaiah can be interpreted! Do not make this prophecy about yourself, unless you take it in context.

What does God call Israel? A SINFUL NATION! He is talking about the wounds of Israel spiritually. This is Isaiah, not me, not my opinion.

Last part of verse 5 says,

"Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted."

Notice that the metaphor of an injured head - or our thoughts is intricately linked to the WHOLE HEART BEING AFFLICTED!

Why are they affected?

Because they are a people:

laden with iniquity

offspring of evil doers

children who deal corruptly

forsake the Lord

despised the Holy One of Israel

utterly estranged Verse 4

This is what context is all about!! What was Isaiah's message?

Continued below:

"And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?” Isa. 6:9-11

Israel would not and could not listen, but God warned them anyway. And he gave hope, in the future suffering servant, the Messiah, who would heal the "wounds" of sin sickness. That is the prophecy in Isa. 53, connected to Isaiah 1.

Why? Why did the Father have to send his Son? To physically heal us? Not there in any way, shape of form! He sent his Son to suffer and die because we were diseased from sin and evil.

Those wounds in Isa. 53, are in context with words about sin and transgression. There is not a single word there about physical healing, although certainly, part of the Messiah's ministry was to heal us from our sin, and physical healing was part of Jesus earthly ministry.

Wounds = sin, iniquity, unrighteousness, evil, corruption, forsaking God!

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin," Isa. 53:10

See - The end of Isaiah 53 makes it clear - The suffering servant makes his life an offering for SIN!

Another reason why both WoF is such a dangerous heresy. They take the Biblical definitions and the purpose Christ came to die and twists them beyond recognition from what the Bible says

"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”" Matt 1:21

Nothing about physical healing in this verse. If it was true, that Jesus was beaten to heal us, then why would Matthew not have included it? Because that was NOT the prophecy.

My challenge to all is that you read Isaiah and all the Old Testament prophets, and then you will understand the message of the Bible. That we are a sinful and evil people, and Jesus came to save them/us from our sins and make us righteous.

Another basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins. No need to manifest it some day! No need to see something that isn’t there. Jesus saves us, when we believe! No need to "call it into existence," or any other confused and unbiblical theory. No ifs, ands, or buts!

But neither healing, nor prosperity is included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. I think there are enough testimonies around including my own concerning how people are not always healed, and how God uses that for good. Really solid good! See my signature if you don't believe!

So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.

I don't see why not. And after a few missed payments, you can also declare bankruptcy

I believe God does heal. I also believe He can make people rich. Do I believe it's automatic or that everyone will be healthy and rich? No. I agree and I don't think anyone is arguing with you on this point. That's true. I fully believe that, but it doesn't end there for me. I believe God for other things as well. Those things are not as automatic as salvation when the Lord says believe and i will be saved. But I believe for those things as well, because he says all things are possible with Him.

There are things that I may pray for and don't get, however there are others who pray for those same things and receive them.

When those people testify about the blessings God has given them. I don't get mad, and find scriptures to show that, since i did not receive what I ask for, then its sinful for them to be talking about how God blessed.

And if God does not give me what I asked for, it's not because He can't provide it, oh no! He certainly can, however it is not His will. But that doesn't stop me from encouraging others to pray for what they want. While there is ,a lot of nonsense going on in some of the churches that does not line up with the word of God, that does not mean you should deny that God can and does do wonderful things for us after he saves us.

You said in an earlier post that no one needs to have a car? What about the person who works hours away from home, where there is no reliable public transportation? What about a sick person who has to be urgently rushed to the doctor?

I don't know what device you use to connect to the internet, but its not hard to imagine someone saying you don't need the internet or that device. What would your response be?

It's really pointless to take things to such extremes.

We don't need healing, we don't need a car, we don't need miracles. These are generalized statements. God by His will, grace and mercy will assess each person and decide what His will for them is and grant them accordingly.

I don't have this option in my country

1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

Believing in Christ's atonement alone does not save one. You must accept or receive the sacrifice that Christ has made on our behalf by faith, - "Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith" Rom 3:25 ESV. You must also confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9 One must also recognize that they are a sinner and repent of their sins Act 2:38

The name it and claim it teachings may try to teach you to trust God for healing or for a new car, but it does not teach how to trust God in those hard times or if the healing doesn't come.

Check out Jesus's sermon on the mount teachings especially Matthew 6:19-24 and Matthew 6:25-34.

First, you missed this in post #161 above, where I dealt again, with pulling verses out of context.

"Then, there is the 1 Peter passage, which quotes it.

""He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

Notice the words in the first part of the sentence have to do with the last part of the verse.

bore our sins

die to sin

live to righteousness.

So what are we healed from?? From sin and unrighteousness. There is absolutely nothing to do in context with physical healing, in either Isa. 53:5-6 or 1 Peter 2:24. Try reading the verses for what they are saying, not the lies you have been fed by the Word Faith movement!!"

Second, I absolutely do not believe in synergistic, decisional regeneration. I did NOTHING to be saved. God just saved me, when I deserved nothing, and then told me John 3:16, which I remembered from Sunday school, and told me to repent. No nonsense about me having to help God to deserve salvation, just God for the entire salvation, or monergistic process! So, bad theology is affecting you in more ways than you can imagine, isn't it? All these things come after salvation. If they do not, I fear legalism, a complete lack of understanding of the sovereignty of God, and a lack of relationship with God. If you think you have followed these instructions to be saved, rest assured that the sovereign God saved you, and then you realized what you needed to do, as the beginning of your Christian walk. (ie Sanctification)

i thought the OP had to do with believers doing miracles if our faith was strong enogh, this is what Jesus taught so i dont see why its a big issue.
the WOF stuff came out of no where and i dont see how its relevant. i thought most those guys were the mega church prosperity money preachers, whats that have to do with miracles?

Joyce Meyer has teachings on trusting and praising God in difficult times. TD Jakes as well.

Joyce does not believe that every one will be rich and prosperous and get any and everything they want from God. She actually teaches that you can be happy in any situation, once you see things from God's perspective.

Please show me in any of my posts where I said "God does not heal!" I specifically said:
"we are not automatically healed...when we believe in the atonement."

In other words, healing is not guaranteed in the atonement, but God does heal when it is his will.

No, I did not say, "You said in an earlier post that no one needs to have a car?" I said that evangelists don't need a car. And that in places like Africa and India, they don't, many don't even have a bicycle, yet they preach the gospel. What a secular Christian needs, to get to work, hospital etc, was never the question or answer. The question was about people begging for money to get things they think they need. We have donated a car to people in ministry, and no one asked us, and it was at a time, we were broke poor. I am not saying either, that people in ministry should not have a car, it is just the begging for money, which rapidly goes from broken down car, to simple but newer car, to a more comfortable car, a plane and then the best small jet possible. If you don't believe me, just look at the tele-evangelists, and their threats and claims.

Here is one I remember. Also in many other MSM sites.

"(CNN) A prosperity gospel televangelist from Louisiana says Jesus has asked him to buy a new private jet. And wouldn't you know it, Jesus has real nice taste in planes.
Jesse Duplantis, leader of Jesse Duplantis Ministries and the owner of three other private jets, is asking his followers to chip in so his ministry can purchase a brand new Dassault Falcon 7X, which runs about $54 million.
In a video recently published on his website, Duplantis says the planes get him closer to the Lord -- both literally and figuratively -- and he had a divine conversation in which Jesus asked for the new aircraft by name."

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/30/us/jesse-duplantis-plane-falcon-7x-prosperity-gospel-trnd/index.html

That is the greed game, played out to its fullest. Maybe a million of the money collected could go to bicycles for evangelists in Third World countries? Along with some Bible training, which most do not have? Or some proper Bible training for these Word Faith shysters and greedy preachers? No, they can pay for that themselves, if they dare look at the bible properly.

Besides the fact that this greed is just a horrible witness to the gospel. Who in the world is going to follow Jesus, if they read this disgusting article? I cannot blame CNN for mocking him with glee. But, how offended Jesus must be, that his name has been so taken in vain by Duplantis!

And here is another link to a youtube video about 9 pastors who have jets!


I realize you may not know about these things in your country. But, now you do, so no more defending begging for money for things, especially by Word Faith teachers, every one of them.

Never did I generalize any statement, as you are claiming. I have been extremely specific, especially with what Scripture has to say about healing and riches. I have quoted the Bible extensively, concerning Isa. Did you read it? I realize many people have abandoned the riches part of Word Faith, but, so many get stuck on healing being in the atonement, by quoting Isa. 53:5d.

Your straw man simply does not stand. I believe that God is sovereign. He saves us, he leads and guides us, and he also does many wonderful things for us when we are saved. But, the Word Faith moment fails to understand, (someone posted this earlier in this thread!) that sickness, instead of being a curse, can be an incredible way to grow in character. I have met so many victorious Christians, in wheelchairs, or bed ridden in long term care, who can rejoice in the amazing inner healing God has done through the sickness. And that includes me!

It is not just that God does not automatically heal, but it is his will that sometimes, that he uses the lack of healing for his glory, and to transform us into the image of Christ. (Rms 12:1-2; 2 Cor. 3:18) And don't forget to read my signature. That verse turned my head around, and give me the first joy and peace I had had since, I had been diagnosed, 8 years earlier. And ironically, when I was finally able to see what God had done, he got me on good meds, which got me back my life.

Indeed

I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. Phil4:12

That is good.

I've gotten confused reading through the comments. I pointed that out yesterday.

I wanted to know if by declaring something, it would happen in reality.

Yes that was my simple question.

A "yes" or "no" followed by a scripture to back up the yes or no would have sufficed. Its that simple really.

Joyce also believes that Jesus went to hell, and became the "first born-again Christian" when he left hell. She believes we are "little gods" which is another torn out of context verse resulting in terrible theology. Plus, you have to believe lies, or you ate not even saved, according to her distorted doctrine.

"(audio clip) Joyce Meyer, “The Devil thought he had it, the devil thought he had won. Oh they were having the biggest party that has ever been had. They had my Jesus on the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing and he had become sin. Don’t you think that God was pacing wanting to put a stop to what was going on. All the hosts of hell were up on him, up on him, up on him. The angels are in agony, all the creation is groaning. All the hosts of hell was up on him, up on him, they got on him. They got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing and mocking, “haha you trusted God and look where you ended up. You thought he would save you and get you off that cross – he didn’t haha.”

Just in case you doubt Joyce right now she wrote in her above mentioned, quote, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”
(audio clip) Joyce Meyer, “The Devil thought he had it, the devil thought he had won. Oh they were having the biggest party that has ever been had. They had my Jesus on the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing and he had become sin. Don’t you think that God was pacing wanting to put a stop to what was going on. All the hosts of hell were up on him, up on him, up on him. The angels are in agony, all the creation is groaning. All the hosts of hell was up on him, up on him, they got on him. They got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing and mocking, “haha you trusted God and look where you ended up. You thought he would save you and get you off that cross – he didn’t haha.”

Just in case you doubt Joyce right now she wrote in her above mentioned, quote, “There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell.”

According to Meyer Jesus only meant that The Old Covenant was finished but she said that the atonement was really just getting started when Jesus said these words. However Meyer fails to understand that the words, “It is finished” are one Greek word which means to complete a process to accomplish, to pay in full. Joyce Meyer should take James 3:1 seriously as it says, “My brethren let not many of you become teachers knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgement.” You know it is very interesting that you can search The New Testament from front to back and never exegete this sensationalistic teaching from it.

Meyer like many in The Word of Faith camp who teach extra biblical doctrine appeals to what she would call Revelation Knowledge to substantiate her teachings as coming from God. In other words the Bible doesn’t actually teach this, I got it through a direct revelation from God’s Spirit to my Spirit. That is why Meyer said in her audio tape dealing with the exact same subject quote, “The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really that is why you have got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I am telling you. I have got to just trust God that he is putting it into your spirit like he put it into mine.”

(audio clip) Joyce Meyer, “The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really that is why you have got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I am telling you. I have got to just trust God that he is putting it into your spirit like he put it into mine.”

(audio clip) Joyce Meyer, “The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really that is why you have got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I am telling you. I have got to just trust God that he is putting it into your spirit like he put it into mine.”

(audio clip), “Sunday morning here comes the sun. Sunday morning God gets himself together. Justice has been met somehow everything has been taken care of and oh God gets his voice together and he hummers up three words and they go roaring through the universe and entering the gates of hell. He said it is enough. It is enough.”

Again chapter and verse please!!!! Where in the World does the Bible say this? Well we will pick up more about Joyce Meyer and her born again Jesus teaching next week."



Here is the link to the whole article, with the audio clips with Joyce Meyer saying all this unbiblical nonsense.

https://craigbrownsreformedtheology...r-joyce-meyer’s-shocking-doctrine-and-heresy/

Why would you trust a person, just because they are positive, when their whole theology is so far from the truth of Scripture, as to be something totally made up? There are so many good preachers, and books, for that matter, on good theology, on real theology, on deep theology, that listening to this stuff, except to debunk it is lies, is not only dangerous, but soul destroying. We need to read about Jesus, not about some made up supposed revelations like Joyce proclaims above. .

And, I am beginning to see where you are coming from, and that you have listened to Joyce Meyer too many times!

Amen.

Here you go - NO!!!

Scriptures? See above! In fact, I don't really have to post Scriptures, it is the Word Faith people who need to justify theirs. And every single time, those Scriptures are pulled out of context, and twisted and distorted, or in the case of Joyce Meyer, completely made up. And yet, I have posted the context on every verse presented, and not one single WoF person has countered them! That's because you cannot.

I am not too clear what you meant by that phrase but judging from the rest of your paragraph, you believed you are saved the moment you repented and declared that Jesus is your Lord correct? The only proof you had for that belief was because of God's word correct?

That is how most Christians believe they are saved, the process of "I believe and therefore I speak", regardless of however they feel at the moment. I would propose that. when it comes to trusting God for healing, to follow the same process, regardless of whether or not healing is manifested physically. That is faith, and it pleases God.

A man once said Jesus lied when he said if you had faith you could tell a mountain to go into the sea and it would be done. For he claimed he told a mountain to go into the sea, believed it would happen but it did not.
I could walk past a million dollar mansion and claim it as my own, but would I be subsequently given it? I could say I will win the lottery, but will it happen?
But if I claimed something God wanted me to have, if I claimed something that was in line with his will for my life, my act of faith would be rewarded