God LIED!

AMEN....regardless of how it is spun......any salvation that can be lost and or needs to be maintained by man through any effort on his part boils down to a working for salvation.....end of story.....no matter how it is peddled, put forth, twisted etc.......it is either 100% Christ, his work, his power, his promises, his sustaining hand or it is a working for assisted salvation where we get to share the glory with Christ........

I have to ask these questions dcontroversal. Did the Disciples of Jesus ask Jesus "what is up, with this?" When they came across someone casting out demons using Jesus' name.
Was it because they couldn't, or didn't see? Did the disciples of Christ opine this one casting out demons was doing works for salvation?
Was this one, preaching against Jesus?

How did Jesus respond?
Mark 9:
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

There are "other" matters that needs be addressed aside from the Great Commission yanno? That yet "fall within the parameters" of the Kingdom of God, and Kingdom of Light. That don't go AGAINST Christ.
Yet, are "seen" as "works=salvation!"

But NO ONE here is claiming works maintain salvation. Come on man, WHO is saying this? Who are you two talking about? EVERYONE here agrees works do not save, EVERYONE agrees works do not maintain salvation, what Bud and you are missing here is that the works we are speaking of are those that come AFTER salvation, AS A RESULT OF salvation, as a result of His power. Nobody is claiming what you two are rebuking, no one. Who are you guys talking about?

I understand exactly what you two are talking about and agree with you both, and have said that multiple times. What I do not understand is why you oppose us declaring that the power of God DOES change us, and now in love, in eagerness, and only by His power for His glory, and the believer will "work" for God, period. But for some reason you guys just have to put forth this hypothetical "reborn believer that does nothing for God", I think. I don't know ANY believers like that personally, and think if someone finds their selves being this way, then they may want to take serious inventory, and most likely are not saved, IMHO. If that's what you guys feel needs to be the central issue and proclaimed the loudest, I disagree 100%, I do not believe that a person can be reborn in the Spirit of the God I know, and still live like before as if still in the flesh, it's just not possible and even worse than that it's completely powerless and pointless. I do not serve a powerless and pointless God, my God is bigger than that and I will proclaim it unashamed.

Everything in bold is your embellishment....I have never said any such thing and or taught such crap....and I must say bro......every person on this site that teaches a salvation that can be lost or that must be maintained by works teaches a works based salvation......

I can do nothing but agree with you here, fully. I again really don't disagree with you on any point you've made. Or Budman for that matter, everything said is technically sound, my only point to him before was that the message he repeats over and over, "we will always sin, and you can NEVER lose your salvation", which again I actually agree with both statements, but the way he presents it, as if salvation is a ticket punch, and the finish line, but I want it known, that this can keep false converts in the dark. It did me and he refuses to even address this point even when directly asked time and time again.

I had no idea about any change before, all I heard from the pulpit was "you will always sin, we can NEVER stop sinning, and you are saved no matter what". I hate to have to say this all the time, but I DO agree with these two statements all alone, but while I was in the flesh they deceived me into thinking I knew what being saved even was when I didn't. I repeated the prayer, I even got dunked under water in front of everyone and was declared "saved". I was NOT saved, but hearing "your always going to sin", the exact way he presents it with NO mention of change, helped to fool me into thinking I was saved, but still loved my porn, was saved but still loved my drugs, and loved these things WAY more than this "idea of Jesus", who I did NOT know. All his points and arguments come from the mind frame I was in while deceived into thinking I knew what being a Christian even was.

Then the wreak I always mention, but have to because that was what brought me face to face with reality and how truly powerless and futile my life was. This did not send me seeking for God further, no I already thought I knew what that was, and it was powerless to help me. I've been listening to Galatians lately and I find what Paul writes in Gal 1:11-12 to hold absolutely true for me,

11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel. 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

I hope this does not come off as a boast, if so it is a boast of His power, but I thought I knew what "Christianity" was before, I thought I had "done that", and it didn't help when men taught me. I thought these things in part because of the way I heard it presented, and when I hit my knees I was not "invoking the salvation I already had from the empty words I repeated in the past", no when I hit my knees it wasn't in seeking anything, it was in complete and utter defeat. I was granted repentance awesomely hard, praise His name, I was done and knew it in a blubbering mass on the floor, crying out "I can't do this anymore", and "I QUIT", as I've shared so many times before, but THAT was the day. September 29th, 2013 (I was 33), that I was saved in power by our Lord Jesus Christ. I woke up that day new, the old man was crucified with Christ, and the new man was spiritually reborn of the Spirit, and commanded "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

This seems to be where I get the biggest rub, when I start talking about what happens AFTER we are saved by grace and not works. I'm PAST salvation when I speak of this subject. When I say that "His works" through me are evidence of ones salvation I already have salvation, that I can't lose BTW. THIS is what I've been told (what I'm saying)='s works maintaining salvation, and it's just not true. I'm also told that me saying that my old man has been put to death, means I am saying that I am 100% sinless and it can mean nothing else at all, which it absolutely does not mean in the biblical context, at all, and apparently the question "do you still sin" supposedly completely debunks everything I believe, and that I'm preaching works righteousness, when I've give only God the credit for ANYTHING & EVERYTHING I do in Jesus name. I will maintain my view that the truly saved WILL work(for the record this says nothing about the frequency, quality, or amount of works at all, we are all different), but for some reason, even you agree on this point, people want to create this hypothetical saved "Christian" who does NOTHING at all for our God, and is still saved. This argument, for Gods powerlessness, makes NO sense to me, and is opposite from what God has shown me in my life. I honestly really don't like it, especially when I am being told I'm "works salvation" for declaring the power of God in and through my life to kingdom build, to point everyone and everything towards Him. So this is why I get frustrated with the whole thing, but again I honestly don't think we are saying different things, just missing each other on the way somewhere.

BTW, I wasn't speaking of "you" in the comment before last, but you do agree with and back up the people who are pushing these things, while arguing against the person who's not and is not at all preaching works salvation or works maintenance.

I like to think the we have a good understanding of each other. I was kind of just using your comment as a jumping off point to make my point, but I was not trying to "accuse" you of anything and I'm sorry if I seem that way. You are my brother bottom line, and no matter what difference I know we praise Jesus together. I hope you have a great day man, and sorry if I came across any other way.

I haven't read all of you posts, but do you not see your font size is too small for me to read?

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Budman says:
Jesus said that He gives us eternal life, and that we shall never perish, and that no one can snatch us out of His, or the Father's hand. (John 3:16, 10: 28-29)

If we can lose our salvation, then we will perish, and we will indeed be snatched out of the hands of Jesus and the Father.

Verdict: God LIED.

My response:
Jesus says he gives us eternal life, but he does not tell us when he will give it. Does he give it the second we believe in him? Or does he give it when we die and are resurrected? Since we are not immortal the moment we believe, and we can actually perish and die, then I lean toward after the resurrection is the time that Jesus will actually give eternal life to us.

After he gives us eternal life, it is then that no one can snatch us ou of His or the Fathers hand.

So until Jesus actually does give us eternal life, I believe we can loose it per so many different scriptures on the subject, and God does not LIE.

All of you scriptures can be analyzed in the same way. I notice that no other scriptures are given that tell us to live the Law of Christ.
See Galations 6:1-2. I believe that if we do not live the Law of Christ we will not be given eternal life.

So I guess, I will error on the side of believe, trust, and do good works, rather that just believe and hope all will be well.

Hey man, this is a well thought out response, and I truly appreciate you sharing it, having myself believed the very same way before. Now I have to disagree on a few things, but I understand what you mean, and although I do agree with Budman on the point of "we cannot ever lose salvation", I do not agree with his presentation of the overall "vision" of what these things mean and how we are to proclaim them.

First thing I do not agree with, is the point about when we are given to Him, or in His hands. I believe when we are born again we are His. This would be a good time to define exactly what we mean when we say we are save, or reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, "born again".

I do agree with the very last thing you said, "So I guess, I will error on the side of believe, trust, and do good works, rather that just believe and hope all will be well", see the way I've come to understand it is being born again is how we are able to do these things, this is why and how He gets all the glory for them, and those in Him will always point any praise or admiration given to them because of these things they do right back to, and only to, Jesus Christ. .

See I was not raised in the church and God blessed me with a truly radical rebirth through the hardest thing I ever faced in life, and He delivered me from a hopeless, Godless, despair overnight in a way that was undeniable to everyone around me at the time. I went from death to life for real, right in front of them praise Jesus mighty name. So I come at this from that perspective, and know it's different for each person. I know people that have been serving the Lord since they could walk, most can tell you when they were older, the point when repentance took place and they were truly reborn, but some can't pinpoint a time. It took me being crushed in the flesh with nowhere else to turn to realize "my way" only lead to death and "QUIT" the universe. See I thought I already did the whole "Christian" thing and it didn't help. I heard this weak "repeat this prayer, accept Jesus into your heart, check yes or no, you will always sin and can never ever lose salvation (no mention of any kind of change, or repentance, or indwelling of His Spirit) soft, easy, kind of "worst sin is offending someone" kind of powerless blah. So when I hit my knees, if I had ever believed in God, I didn't then. I didn't hit my knees seeking, I hit my knees in complete and utter defeat, period. It was from that state, completely broken, dead on the floor that our Lord and Savior picked me up, praise His might name. That was when the Father picked me up, and the very beginning of me fulfilling the purpose for which I was created, namely pointing all to the unimaginable glory of our God. Whoop, Whoop!!!

I would like to hear exactly what you have come to understand salvation even is if you even feel like sharing it, if so cool, if not cool too, and I hope you have a great day.

Thank you for your story. It is one that needs to be told in a book. People need to know they can repent and accept Jesus as their Savior and move from evil to good in a moment of time.

But I believe that when you come to a knowledge that Jesus is the Christ and is your Savior, and you go to your knees and the Holy Spirit fills you with that light of the gospel, and you audibly declare that Jesus is my Savior, this is just the beginning of your long journey to Eternal Life.

After you are baptized of the Holys Spirit and then baptized by water, you lay down your old evil person and are raised a new person in Christ. With this new person you enter a new phase of your life in Jesus. He is with you, and you are with him, and now you go to work to help him expand and grow the Kingdom of God on earth. We now come under the Law of Christ, read a little bit of this law in Galations 6:1-2.

So my belief as to how one is saved is this:
We come to believe that Jesus is your Savior
We are baptized of the Holy Spirit
We are baptized of the water by immersion in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
We are raised a new person in Jesus
We now follow the same path that Jesus laid down for us
We love him and keep his commandments
In our busy lives, we make room to:
Take care for the poor
Take care for the widow
Take care of those who are hungry
Take care of those who are naked
Take care of those who are imprisoned
Take care of injustices perpetrated by tyranical potentates
We forgive all men of their malice towards us
We endure to the end as Jesus did
We preach the gospel in any way we can
We witness of Jesus all we can
We worship the Savior and look to him for our salvation, for all our works will not save us in the Kingdom of God.

Underlying this belief is that Jesus is a merciful God. He wants us to be with him eternally. So even though we will sin as we live our lives and bustle and tussle with humanity, we know that if we repent, he will hear us and grant us his love and forgiveness as we have forgiven others.

Jesus will offer us his grace and mercy for he sees in us a willingness to be like him, and to follow him, and to do as he has commanded. And if this is our quest, and we endure to the end, always faithful to him, then he will lift us up in the last days, and we will find ourselves in the Kingdom of God and by his side for all eternity.

To me, this is the whole picture and represents the whole of scriptures that talk of salvation. It is a long journey that starts with your utterance that Jesus is my Savior and I trust in him, and will do as he has commanded. If we do these things, the Lord will be with us forever, and ever. And if we choose not to do these things.......

Choose wisely.

Yes.

Since we are granted eternal life at the moment we believe, everything else you've posted is moot.

Then salvation isn't a gift at all.

You're just another "works for salvation" pusher I see.

The proper title being "Judaizer"

I see you left out the commands of Jesus to sell all you have and give the money to the poor, and to go out and invite the poor, lame, etc., when you have a meal. You're a "pick-n-choose" Law abider.

So I ask the question: can you murder as much as you wish after you have been given Eternal Life and end up sitting beside Jesus forever and ever?

I love how your ilk always go straight to the most grievous things you can think of to try and justify yourselves.

Can you hate someone and still remain saved? (Remember, in God's eyes, if you hate someone, it's the same as murder). How about lie? Steal? Take God's name in vain?

If you have a single sin not covered by the atonement - just a single sin attributed to you - you are lost and can never be saved because Jesus isn't coming back to shed more blood for those sins. Remember; without the shedding of blood there is no remission.

You know I see it a tiny bit different on one single thing, but strait up "Amen" brother. Very well said and I agree. (for whatever that's worth)

The story that you are referring to is Jesus talking to a wealthy young man. And here it is:

Matthew 19:17-26 King James Version (KJV)
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Jesus tells him if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
The young man says which ones.
Jesus tells him of commandments that are apparently important to him.
The young man says he has done this his whole life.
Jesus then adds that if he will be perfect, then go and sell and give to the poor, and follow him.

Jesus was not putting this burden on everyone, he was putting this burden on this young man. Everyone is different, and perfection comes by the will of God, as verse 26 says, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

The apostles did, however, through Jesus did introduce a way of living where all people sold their homes and possessions and brought the money to the apostles and then the apostles were to use this money to set up all the members, as their needs required, and for a time, they had all things in common, there was no rich or poor.

Acts 2:42-47 King James Version (KJV)
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

This is a very little known economic plan of the church in the first century, that was finally abandoned by the church because of the evil and faithless members. The next best system was tithing

I am sure that it would be the best if we could all take care of each other. If the members will not live this system, then the next best system is tithing. Most have heard of this system, and live this commandment. The Lord does not require at this time that we sell all our possessions and follow him. He is in heaven. That would be tough. That is why the story of the rich young ruler was only important to him, he had the opportunity to even be an apostles of the Lord and he turned it down. We can never be apostles of the Lord and we cannot pysically follow him, so it was important to the rich young ruler, but does not apply to us.

But he does require us to live the law of Christ (Galations 6:1-2) and to help each other with our burdens. These things I do to the best of my abilities. Not being a perfect man, I trust Jesus to give me his forgiveness and grace and if my mind is in the right direction I will be given Eternal Life, at the end of my journey, not at the beginning.

Mr. Budman, I am not here to disparage your beliefs. I am here to discuss how we are saved. I believe differently about it than you do. It does not mean that my ilk is trying to justify ourselves. Only Jesus will justify all of us.
The question is when will Jesus justify and sanctify us and give us our Eternal Life?

I do not believe that he gives that to us and then allows us to run in any direction, hilly nilly around the world, doing all sorts of things some good, some bad and especially really bad things, and then allow us, unrepentant to sit with him in his throne for all eternity. As the scriptures say, if we overcome this world, only then can we sit with him.

If a person says he has been saved, and then does not overcome this world and in fact rejects Jesus Christ, Christ will not give him Eternal Life. And I dare to guess, you have seen many Christians that do not display their saved condition and you would not think of them as in Jesus or a new person in Jesus. Many, many will say I am saved, but will be surprized at the end.

I am sorry that we see things differently because I know you are a man of God and read his scriptures daily, the same scriptures that I read daily. We should be able to see eye to eye, why do we not see eye to eye?

It's OK to see it a little different. We are all Christians making our way in this evil world. Hope I bump into you some time.

Our ILK???

Jesus said if you hate someone it's the same as murdering them.
Matthew 5:21-22

Do you love a group referred to as "ilk"?

Perhaps you'd like to explain to us what it means...
If you have broken one sin, you've broken them all.

I don't read in the N.T. that if we sin ONE TIME, we are lost forever.
I read that we have an advocate with the Father.
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 2:1

These could be some reasons why ....



Galatians 5:17
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.


Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Those who have the spirit of God, walk in the Spirit of God.