Not By Works

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UnderGrace

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#83,281
Argueless said:
If the church in Ephesus was done with their salvation as the OSAS group claim, what's the sense of admonishing them to REPENT and OBEY what they heard and received, and warning them that if they don't wake up He will be coming like a thief?

If what Jesus finished on the cross is "SALVATION", then He will no longer come a second time to bring salvation to those who are eagerly awaiting for Him, those who will be presented to Jesus as a pure virgin and to God, holy, unblemished and free from accusations.

... I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was DECEIVED by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be LED ASTRAY from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

...But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death TO PRESENT YOU holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Aren't you RUNNING AHEAD of everyone else? Or have you reached the GOAL apart from the Body of Christ of which He is the savior?

...For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Ephesians 5:23

...And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. ANYONE WHO RUNS AHEAD and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:6,9

I'll stop here and maybe wait for your rejection or hopefully for a humble acceptance of the Word.
James 1:19-27. Thanks and God bless.
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sense of admonishing them to REPENT and OBEY
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I have not found one instance of Paul using the term µετάνοια / µετανοεῖν (“repentance” / “repent”) in his letter to the Ephesians, can you tell me where that is?

We are saved here on earth in real time by the way....so no, not running ahead of myself.

We are born again in Jesus here on earth in real time.
 
VCO

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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safswan said:
When all of Paul's writings are considered and James is understood properly then they are both teaching the same thing.There is no need for anyone to be justified before men and men are not the ones who save.Hence James is clear.Can faith alone save?All who say otherwise contradict James.Was Abraham's faith, "mere" or not, "saving faith" ?Why then did he have to be justified by works as James says:

"...can faith save him?"(James 2:14)

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"(James 2:21)

Paul says it this way:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."(Romans 2:12,13)

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"(Romans 6:1,2)

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 6:21-23)

Read all of Paul and stop using the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.
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You know EVERY SINGLE One of you, who thinks JAMES teaches you must keep the LAW to be saved, MAKES THE SAME MISTAKE.
YOU SKIP VERSE 13.


James 2:13-14 (HCSB)
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who hasn’t shown mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can his faith save him?


YOU MUST HAVE MERCY FROM THE LORD TO BE SAVED, AND IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WORKS:


Titus 3:5-7 (HCSB)
5 He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
6 He poured out this ⌊Spirit⌋ on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that having been justified by His grace, we may become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Titus 3:8 (HCSB)
8 This saying is trustworthy. . . .


YOU are cherry picking your favorite verses, while you never even read verse 13 in context to see what it means.

YES, JESUS TEACHES THAT IF YOU LOVE HIM, YOU ARE SAVED, AND THEREFORE THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU WERE SAVED, WILL BE IN YOUR FRUIT (OBEDIENCE); HOWEVER, YOU ARE SAVED WHEN YOUR SEED FIRST SPROUTED OUT OF THE GROUND, ALSO CALLED THE BEGINNING OF FAITH.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.


Trash Can your presuppositions, learn to read in context, and you will make far fewer mistakes in interpretation.

 
Chester

Chester

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UnderGrace said:
Okay, so we are saved by being good followers?
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Not sure how you come up with that one . . . ?

I think if you will look carefully at the verse we were commenting on (John 8:31,32), the group Jesus was talking to was not even "saved".

Maybe I am not understanding you: Do you agree with what I said: "It is not those who just say that what Jesus says is true that are his disciples, but it is those who continue in what he said and taught."?
 
U

UnderGrace

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#83,286
#83,286
Chester said:
Not sure how you come up with that one . . . ?

I think if you will look carefully at the verse we were commenting on (John 8:31,32), the group Jesus was talking to was not even "saved".

Maybe I am not understanding you: Do you agree with what I said: "It is not those who just say that what Jesus says is true that are his disciples, but it is those who continue in what he said and taught."?
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Chester said:
The context of this verse in John 8 is a group of Jews who believed that Jesus said was true, but they did not believe "into" (Greek "eis") Jesus. By the end of the chapter Jesus very clearly defines them as outside of being his followers.

It is not those who just say that what Jesus says is true that are his disciples, but it is those who continue in what he said and taught.
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Jesus is talking to a group of Jews, his words have been recorded. We need to read it from that context.

You have clearly written that this verse if differentiating between true disciples and not true disciple.

I am saying that that is not what Jesus is talking about at all.

He is telling them to keep following His word, His story because He is going to go the cross and will be resurrected and when that happens then and only then will they be set free.

Discipleship is about learning about Jesus, it is not about trying to emulate Him.

My discipleship is not what saves me.
 
TruthTalk

TruthTalk

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UnderGrace said:
Seriously why does everyone read bad news into Jesus words like there was no hope.

It is very clear what He stating, He was not finished yet, He had not gone to the cross, but if they keep believing in Him, and believe HIs words they would be born again and set free......Jesus is always revealing the cross to the Jews and telling them to continue believing in His work to ultimate salvation.

He is talking to a specific group of people, the message is for them first, we need to read it from that lens, otherwise you end up with this nonsense of a person loosing their salvation because they are not continuing in His word.
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Hi UnderGrace, you, decon, chester and most Christians will understand the distinction between a Christian being one who has put their faith in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation; and a Christian who has counted the cost and chose to follow the path of discipleship; a disciple will also "make disciples" as he grows into maturity.

Currently I am following more but posting less for now, God bless!

Matthew16:24
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Definition: Disciple: a learner, student or pupil.
Secular: Someone who accepts and helps spread the teachings of a famous person. Merriam-Webster
Biblical: Disciple; Gk. transliteration; mathetes, phonetically 'math-ay-tes', (noun/m). a learner, disciple, pupil.
Greek: mathētḗs; from math - "The mental effort needed to think something through." - properly, a learner,
a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of scripture and the lifestyle they require; someone
catechized with proper instruction from the bible with its necessary follow-through, life applications. (Strongs)
 
U

UnderGrace

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#83,288
#83,288
TruthTalk said:
Hi UnderGrace, you, decon, chester and most Christians will understand the distinction between a Christian being one who has put their faith in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation; and a Christian who has counted the cost and chose to follow the path of discipleship; a disciple will also "make disciples" as he grows into maturity.

Currently I am following more but posting less for now, God bless!

Matthew16:24
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Definition: Disciple: a learner, student or pupil.
Secular: Someone who accepts and helps spread the teachings of a famous person. Merriam-Webster
Biblical: Disciple; Gk. transliteration; mathetes, phonetically 'math-ay-tes', (noun/m). a learner, disciple, pupil.
Greek: mathētḗs; from math - "The mental effort needed to think something through." - properly, a learner,
a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of scripture and the lifestyle they require; someone
catechized with proper instruction from the bible with its necessary follow-through, life applications. (Strongs)
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Absolutely Agree!!:)

A disciple is a learner!
 
TruthTalk

TruthTalk

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Jul 17, 2017
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#83,289
UnderGrace said:
Absolutely Agree!!:)

A disciple is a learner!
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Yes a disciple is definitely a learner and please excuse my shortsighted comment which should have read, as "she or he", grows into maturity;

TruthTalk said:
"a disciple will also "make disciples" as he , "she or he", :) grows into maturity.
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VCO

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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#83,290
UnderGrace said:
Absolutely Agree!!:)

A disciple is a learner!
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I know you know this, but I want to add this:

Our Faith is from GOD, NOT of ourselves; it says so in Eph. 2:8, it is BY GRACE WERE WERE SAVED, because of HIS MERCY, Titus 3:4-8. THEN and ONLY THEN, we can become a disciple, learning to walk like JESUS. THAT MAKES IT PART OF Sactification, and NOT SALVATION.


John 14:23 (HCSB)
23 Jesus answered, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

THAT WILL is a reference to "WANT TO DO IT OUT OF LOVE FOR HIM". VAST DIFFERENCE, between that and HAVE TO KEEP HIS COMMANDS TO BE SAVED. The difference is TRULY SAVED BY HIS MERCY AND GRACE, and the error "NOW YOU OWE ME SALVATION LORD". BIG MISTAKE, those who believe that, ARE NOT EVEN BORN AGAIN.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#83,291
#83,291
TruthTalk said:
Yes a disciple is definitely a learner and please excuse my shortsighted comment which should have read, as "she or he", grows into maturity;
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You are so cute, I always take "he" to include "she" when we make general statements, like in the Bible where "brothers" is inclusive. :)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#83,292
#83,292
VCO said:
I know you know this, but I want to add this:

Our Faith is from GOD, NOT of ourselves;
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Well I actually do not agree that Ephesians 2:8 is stating that faith is a gift from God.

It is however stating that the gift of salvation is from God.

If the "faith that saves" is from God well then we might as well dispense with a good chunk of the Bible.

Faith comes from hearing and believing
 
BillG

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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#83,293
TruthTalk said:
Yes a disciple is definitely a learner and please excuse my shortsighted comment which should have read, as "she or he", grows into maturity;
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And we are all disciples of Jesus.

Always wanting to learn, listen to the Holy Spirit.
A disciple will want to learn, always.

We disciple whilst being discipled.
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
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Oct 14, 2013
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#83,294
Chester said:
Is discipleship and following Jesus bad news??
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That is a leading question, But I am prepared to give you the TRUTH.

TO BE SAVED = BAD NEWS, WRONG MOTIVE.

BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM with GODLY LOVE = GOOD NEWS.


IT IS ALL ABOUT MOTIVE OF YOUR HEART.


James 2:5 (HCSB)
5 Listen, my dear brothers: Didn’t God choose the poor in this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that He has promised to those who love Him?

James 2:10 (NIV)
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

1 Samuel 16:7 (HCSB)
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or his stature, because I have rejected him. Man does not see what the LORD sees, for man sees what is visible, but the LORD sees the heart.”

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NIV)
9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion [love] and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Romans 8:27 (NRSV)
27 And God, who searches the heart, knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Revelation 2:23 (HCSB)
23 I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
 
Chester

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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TruthTalk said:
Hi UnderGrace, you, decon, chester and most Christians will understand the distinction between a Christian being one who has put their faith in Jesus Christ for their eternal salvation; and a Christian who has counted the cost and chose to follow the path of discipleship; a disciple will also "make disciples" as he grows into maturity.

Currently I am following more but posting less for now, God bless!

Matthew16:24
24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Definition: Disciple: a learner, student or pupil.
Secular: Someone who accepts and helps spread the teachings of a famous person. Merriam-Webster
Biblical: Disciple; Gk. transliteration; mathetes, phonetically 'math-ay-tes', (noun/m). a learner, disciple, pupil.
Greek: mathētḗs; from math - "The mental effort needed to think something through." - properly, a learner,
a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of scripture and the lifestyle they require; someone
catechized with proper instruction from the bible with its necessary follow-through, life applications. (Strongs)
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Where do we read that it is OK and acceptable to be a "Christian" but not a disciple?

To me a Christian is one who follows Christ in life - that is - a Christian is a disciple.
 
lightbearer

lightbearer

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#83,296
UnderGrace said:
Not really, where is that in scripture?
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For we are dead nevertheless we live. Yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the LIFE we now live in the flesh we live by the FAITH of Christ. For we have put on Christ. (Gal 2:20,3:22)

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above: ) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; For Christ (the word in the heart and mouth) is the end of the law (on tables of Stone and parchment) for righteousness to every one that believeth. .
(Rom 10:4-8 KJV)
 
Chester

Chester

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[QUOTE="UnderGrace, post: 3839924, member: 239621
Discipleship is about learning about Jesus, it is not about trying to emulate Him.

My discipleship is not what saves me.[/QUOTE]

I agree that discipleship includes knowledge (learning about), but I am convinced that it also includes endeavoring to live like (emulate) Jesus would in the world today.

Discipleship does not save - agreed - only Jesus saves!
 
Chester

Chester

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May 23, 2016
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BillG said:
And we are all disciples of Jesus.

Always wanting to learn, listen to the Holy Spirit.
A disciple will want to learn, always.

We disciple whilst being discipled.
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You hit the nail on the head! Amen and amen and amen and amen!
 
VCO

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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#83,300
UnderGrace said:
Well I actually do not agree that Ephesians 2:8 is stating that faith is a gift from God.

It is however stating that the gift of salvation is from God.

If the "faith that saves" is from God well then we might as well dispense with a good chunk of the Bible.

Faith comes from hearing and believing
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I can convince YOU of that Fact with two verses:

1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!”
and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.


That is saying it as a CONFESSION, not just merely professing it.


Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


SEE, you do not get to take credit for that part of your Born Again EXPERIENCE, it is a work of the HOLY SPIRIT.
 
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