God LIED!

Man this is something. How is it possible that I can agree with what both sides of this argument so fully, yet this debate be so heated. I got caught up right in it too, but honestly don't disagree with what Sketch was saying. Well besides the obvious about me personally, but I think the biggest disconnect in this conversation is one side is talking about how salvation comes, and the other is talking about what happens AFTER that. How are we "changed", if we are growing, what is "Growing" exactly?

All I understand Macabeus to be speaking of, and that I agree with too, is that this "change", this "growing" WILL be present in the truly reborn, that's just what happens and how it works. It is also a personal thing and doesn't happen the same way for everyone, nor to the same degree, and is only through Jesus for everyone. It's also only by the power of God we are changed of course, by His grace as a free gift that we are powerless to earn, so anything we do as a result of this change (these dreaded "works") He gets the glory for. He transforms us for His glory. These are not chains, He changes our hearts, changes our very natures to now desire to please Him in ways we NEVER would have before He graced us with spiritual life and reconciliation to our Creator through His crucifixion and death and resurrection from the dead.

Both sides affirm that salvation is not earned, both sides know that being reborn in Christ brings change, where it seems to fall off is when anyone suggest that this "change" is evidence of ones salvation. Not the cause, not a payment of any kind to the God that gave EVERYTHING. It is just the behavior that results from the KING of ALL, by His grace and His mercy, making us whole in Him again as we were created to be, as a free gift no one deserves....What Macabeus is, and what I was speaking of earlier is what happens AFTER this free gift by His Spirit, it is simply the "change" and the "growing" that we already agree on. Yet we waste time talking past each other for what? Just to be right? I was just reading through these comments and wanted to share what I saw. I actually love all of you guys and pray that God draw us all closer each and every day. Have a great day brothers and sisters out there.

You have followed me enough to know that I agree....MY objection is the denial of the fact that the bible also speaks to saved children of God that do not go on to maturity, fail in their walk, and or end up with no evidences other than faith which is what saves a man ETERNALLY......NUMEROUS examples of this truth is found throughout the bible.......and the secondary objection comes when the word is skewed to try and prove some point of works or obedience found within the few examples of saved men that had nothing but faith....there seems to be a lack of honesty when it comes to some truths that do not fit particular theologies pushed by some....

ALL that are honest KNOW that I have said umpteen times that genuine believers will have fruit or works and that EVEN faith in Christ has resulted in the work of HEAVENLY FATHER <---a man could be born again, not mature not grow, not succeed in the process of transformation and or sanctification in his daily life and YET STILL BE SAVED with the WORK of the HEAVENLY FATHER in their life.....

THAT is my issue with the hard fast rules and embellished doctrine that gets pushed......

BUDMAN , I HAVE SOME SCRIPTURAL DOUBTS ...I HAVE READ THE VERSES YOU HAVE WRITTEN AND THAT'S GREAT BUT I STUMBLE AT SOME VERSES WHICH I WILL QUOTE BELOW ...I DON'T REMEMBER WHICH VERSE WHICH CHAPTER BUT AM SURE IF YOU KNOW YOUR BIBLES , YOU KNOW THESE ARE THERE IN IT . I WON'T QUOTE THEM PERFECTLY...BUT WITH HOW MUCH EVER I REMEMBER SO HERE THEY ARE -
1) IN THE BOOK OF HEBREWS - IF WE KEEP ON SINNING WILLFULLY THEN THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE BUT A FEAR OF JUDGEMENT
2) IN THE O.T - GOD SAYS - AM WEARY OF RELENTING ( I DONT REMEMBER THE CHAPTER NOR THE VERSE )
3) KING SOLOMON - SOLOMON FORSAKES THE LORD IN THE END. NOW MY SISTER TOLD ME THAT SHE HEARD IN A SERMON THAT A PREACHER WAS PREACHING THAT SOLOMON IS IN HELL FOR THIS.
4) BOOK OF HEBREWS - 'FOR IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BRING THOSE TO REPENTANCE WHO HAVE BEEN ENLIGHTENED ...'
5) PAUL - TALKS ABOUT A RACE TO BE RUN
6) PAUL - SAYING " PREACHING TO OTHERS , I SHOULDN'T MYSELF GET DISQUALIFIED"
7)REVELATIONS - JESUS SAYING - SOMETHING ABOUT 'SPEWING THE ONES WHO ARE LUKEWARM OUT"...IF YOU ARE NEITHER HOT NOR COLD...
8)MAKE YOUR CALLING SURE (AM NOT SURE ABOUT THIS)
9)YOU DO NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP (JOHN)
10)IN THE END GOD IS ASKING PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR DEEDS - HE IS SAYING - WHEN I WAS NAKED , YOU CLOTHED ME , I WAS IN PRISON AND YOU VISITED ME ....NOW IF I GO TO GOD .AND HAVEN'T DONE ANY OF THESE AND IF HE ASKS ME IF I HAD....I WON'T HAVE AN ANSWER...BECAUSE I DONNO IF I HAVE DONE THESE AT ALL.
11) "IF THE RIGHTEOUS ARE SCARCELY SAVED ..." SOMETHING LIKE " THE JUDGEMENT HAS ALREADY BEGUN AND IF IT STARTS WITH US...WHERE WILL THE UNBELIEVERS AND SINNER APPEAR."
12) PAUL SAYING ,- IT IS WRITTEN - FOR GOD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE!

IF THE RIGHTEOUS ARE SCARELY SAVED....
i dont understand...I think this is written in the letter by Peter. So if he is talking about the righteousness attained/imputed by faith...how can that only SCARCELY save us...?

Think about the truth of that statement and how one can possibly think they have anything to do with earning or keeping salvation......

What examples of people who produce no fruit, I though the branches that produce no fruit are cut off and thrown into the fire? I know there will be those whose works will be burned up, they will suffer loss, but be saved, but even they were working right? Just for the wrong reasons. I can see these points you are making here, and my only problem is specific, and know I'm just explaining it, not accusing in any way. I just hate these to be the main thing coming out of a Christians mouth. The focus on this in church helped kept me in the dark personally, and had me thinking I was Christian when I wasn't, and if I would have died in that motorcycle wreak I'd be in hell right now because of it. Strait up.

I've been deceived by the whole focus on it Way too much. The "FOCUS ON IT" is what I'm talking about, it's true we are never sinless this side of the grave, but I just feel this is not by any means what the Christian should build whole ministries on. These kinds of things being said, "I will always sin", "I can be saved and do nothing for God", "I can still resist God after salvation". I can truly say I HATE these things being the main message out of a Christisans mouth, and think it's an insult to the TRUE power of Jesus. I am NOT saying it's not true, I just personally hate bigger things to proclaim than how I'm still weak. See what I mean? Why in the world would I want to check the Christians proclaiming the power of Jesus to change us to do works for His glory, and glorifying God for ALL of it? Why in the world do I want to smother this fire for proclaiming the Lord, with the wet towel of "but we will always sin"? Or "don't you still sin?... see, case closed".

I do also believe in false guilt, I believe legalism and works salvation are just as dangerous as well, and think these verses are awesome for this, but I cannot see how proclaiming that Jesus "WILL CHANGE YOU", is not a 100% biblical statement, "How I live my life (my works), after salvation, is the evidence of my faith, my salvation will be evident to the world, by His power", isn't the same, 100% biblical. Why does a Christian want to honestly argue that the God that saved them could bring ones spirit to life, reconcile it to out Creator through Jesus, and stay the same. I do say that's not possible. You WILL be changed meeting the living God that I know without a doubt, just not possible to not changed at all. But I would like to look at and examine the other examples of people that were saved by grace through faith that just sat down for the sake of educating myself. Who are the examples? I will look them up.

Do you believe the works that get burnt were godly and biblical?

1 Samuel 8
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

And while everything God tells us is true, it's also for a purpose.
No, I believe those burnt up were NOT godly, they were self serving and why they were burnt up. I do believe it's 2 billion % biblical though.

And the one's whose works were burnt up were STILL SAVED yet so as by fire with NOTHING to show in the way of works other than salvation.....think about that for a minute brother

Jesus is the vine and we are the branches

Apples and oranges. A Christian is a new creation the moment he or she is born again. AND THEY ARE IN CHRIST. And Christ said that if we abide in Him, we will bear fruit.

So you know there was nothing left? Where does it say they were ALL burnt up?I say there was still some there. Who's right? Think about it too you're saved with nothing? Where does it say that?

You and budman sure attacked me for saying these things in other thread. And like I said, my point of contention is with the statement of some that you can be saved and not live in a Christian manner. And Dcontroversial is arguing with me about the fact that real Christians keep God's commandments, bear fruit, etc. SO don't say no one is arguing these points, because you are wrong

As I told you before, some here say that one can be saved and show NO EVIDENCE of being saved. And that saying that there are evidences of true conversations is legalistic. Well John the apostle spoke about KNOWING and Jesus spoke of knowing people by their fruit.

Amen, this says NOTHING about any amount, or how they serve, only why. For His glory. It blows my mind having to "debate" this on a Christian site. "????"

so it takes a Christian three years to be IN CHRIST? If you are in Christ, you will bear fruit, silly. Read John 15

and it's not helping Jesus. HE IS THE VINE AND WE ARE THE BRANCHES. HE produces the fruit not us

Tons of people who are false converts have false peace through your doctrine. Do not make eternal security into infernal security, ie easy believism, decisional regeneration without the new birth or the Holy Spirit being involved.

The key thing is believers...and the gospel is very simple to believe, but it will if believed everyday, manifest in our lives. If we believe the wrong thing about Jesus, there wont be any change in our hearts. Thats why those who preach a false gospel are to be accursed, because those that believe a false gospel arent saved.

You keep tripping up over that son thing. I only ask one thing. Go to Matthew 21:28-32 and tell me who the two sons in that parable represent, then we'll talk about your mistake.

Budman, having faith is not taking credit for salvation. God is providing the Grace and Faith is our part. Are saying that faith is not necessary for salvation? Have you never read "without faith it is impossible to please God?"

As I said and as scripture teaches, we are saved by Grace through faith. No faith, no salvation. We are not saved by a one time confession, so that if we go back into willfully living according to the sinful nature we are still saved. Once a believer turns back and remains in that wandered state, they are accumulating sin, which leads to death.

You are obviously ignoring the scripture that I provided regarding the servant who owed a great debt to his master and who was forgiven. But when he did not have mercy on his fellow servant, that debt was reinstated.

We are not saved by a one time confession. Eternal security is dependent upon the believer continuing in faith from beginning to end.

I've given you the scriptures, but you seem to ignore them, because the do not support your belief. So, here they are again:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—(here's the condition) if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant."

Paul says this once again in Heb.3:14

"We have come to share in Christ (Condition) if we hold firmly to the end the assurance we had at first.

So as you can see from the two scriptures above, the condition of sharing in Christ is continuing in faith. The obvious question would be, what if we don't continue in faith? What if we don't hold firmly in faith to the end? "If" infers a condition. Jesus even demonstrated this referring to Himself as "The Vine" and believers as "the branches." As the branches we must remain on the vine in order to produce fruit. A branch separated from the Vine cannot produce fruit. That said, the believe who has turned back to willfully living according to the sinful nature has been separated from the Vine and can no longer produce fruit. In that state the believer is no longer being transformed into the image of Christ. Consider what Paul was saying in regarding Israel and gentile believers in view of faith:

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

Just as the natural branches (Israel) were broken off because of not having faith, so also can Gentile believers who do not continue in faith be broken off. I gave you the scripture regarding James 5:18, which is very clear on the matter of remaining in faith:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

"My brothers" refers to believer

In order to wander away from the truth, one would have had to already be in the truth.

While the one who has wondered from faith is brought back to his faith, then he will be saved from death and cover over a multitude of sins. This demonstrates that while in his/her wander state, they will have been accumulating sin, the result being death.

Don't just read over these scriptures Budman, but discern what they are saying.

‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done." - Ezk.33:12

In the same way, a believer who turns away from Christ and back into willfully living according to the sinful nature that person's form righteousness will count for nothing. He has wandered away from the truth. He is no longer taking up his cross daily, no longer producing fruit. And if he dies in that state, he will die in his sins.

We are saved by God's grace through our faith, from beginning to the end.

I totally agree having personally been one of them, but for some reason it falls on deaf ears when I even ask what they think about the fact that what they're teaching kept me in darkness, in real life, and all I get is "do you still sin". (for the record I am not referring to DC at all, I actually see eye to eye with him) It is so crazy and seems to me like salvation is the finish line to them. Once you repeat the prayer, you're in and safe, no change, no pull to God. I say that's not saved.

That is NOT my experience at all, nor what I have seen in ANYONE else I know who is saved proclaim, including the folks on the other side of the debate here, they admit the "change", but for some reason want to proclaim that some saved don't do works for God. That just pointless, powerless, dumb, and opposite of ALL my life experience. Why a Christian wants to hold up resisting God, while pushing down righteous works by His power, for His glory, I will NEVER know. The closer He draws me, the hotter the fire gets, the more His word is just pouring out of me everywhere I go (works), and I will proclaim it, but it's crazy to me