Angel of the Lord

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Scrobulous

Scrobulous

Active member
#1
Sep 17, 2018
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#1
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#2
Jul 2, 2011
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#2
The entire question may be answered by faith. Since faith is in things unseen, it will have to be your faith to get a proper response.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#3
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#3
Scrobulous said:
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
Click to expand...
Well the angel of the Lord who appeared before Zachariah, Mary and Joseph said his name was Gabriel.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#4
Dec 27, 2018
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#4
Lanolin said:
Well the angel of the Lord who appeared before Zachariah, Mary and Joseph said his name was Gabriel.
Click to expand...
Angel means messenger. There are many angels, but the one the OP is referring to is a specific angel. Just as there have been many "kings" but Jesus is THE KING.
 
JaumeJ

JaumeJ

Senior Member
#5
Jul 2, 2011
21,423
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#5
Angel is the translation for messenger, spirit and ghost. There may be more translations, but for notw these are the only ones with which I am familiar.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#6
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
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#6
Scrobulous said:
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
Click to expand...
Maybe this will help you out? At Genesis 16:7 is an appearance of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord. He says to Hagar that he will greatly multiply her desendants so that they shall be too many to count, Genesis 16:10. Please read the rest of the verses.

Then at Genesis 17:1,2 it says, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, I am God Almighty; Walke before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will greatly multiply you exceedingly."

Now, keep in mind that according to Jesus Christ Himself at John 5:37 and at John 6:46 God the Father cannot be seen. So here is the question? Is the angel of the Lord who multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who "physically" appeared to Abram at Genesis 17? To be continued later. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#7
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#7
At the end of the day of or from = representative of..........in some cases it seems plausible that it is the Lord and other times a messenger of the Lord....another truth to ponder....Moses was covered by the Lord's hand and only allowed to see his backside........and then you have the burning bush that was not consumed.....and yet we see God walking with ADAM in the cool of the garden.......numerous anomalies found in scripture......like when THREE came to Abraham.........many truths to ponder for sure.
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#8
Dec 6, 2015
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A deplorable! (so you know, what "state" I'm in!)
#8
There are "billions upon billions" of Angels!
God has them all named! We have not (yet) "learned" their names, nor, for what purpose, or purposes (yes...:p they can "multi-task"), they perform.
Here are just 4 named, that were revealed to Enoch:
Enoch 40
8After this I besought the angel of peace, who proceeded with me, to explain all that was concealed. I said to him, Who are those whom I have seen on the four sides, and who words I have heard and written down? He replied, The first is the merciful, the patient, the holy Michael.

9The second is he who presides over every suffering and every affliction of the sons of men, the holy Raphael. The third, who presides over all that is powerful, is Gabriel. And the fourth, who presides over repentance, and the hope of those who will inherit eternal life, is Phanuel. These are the four angels of the most high God, and their four voices, which at that time I heard.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#9
Dec 15, 2018
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#9
Macabeus said:
Angel means messenger. There are many angels, but the one the OP is referring to is a specific angel. Just as there have been many "kings" but Jesus is THE KING.
Click to expand...
Well am just saying the angel of the Lord said his name is Gabriel. Look in Luke.
The OP asked who he was I was just giving his name.
 
J

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
#10
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
#10
Scrobulous said:
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
Click to expand...
Israel my son...
Hosea 11:1 says, "when Israel was a child, I loved him"
Many people trying to do right read over this without a thought.
Where did the nation of Israel get their name?
The mother and father of Samson had a meeting with the "angel of the Lord" as well about their son. This is when they asked the name of the Angel of the Lord and he said, "why do you ask my name? "
The angel had them make a meal offering and he caused it to go up in smoke and went up with the smoke to heaven.

Abraham kept all the instruction of the Lord and trusted him so he was credited with righteousness. He also saw the angel of the Lord before Sodom was destroyed. People also think Malkizadik was this angel of the Lord. I don't believe so however because of other studies I have done. I have come to believe that he was a son of Noach and kept the priesthood which was taught to him by his father.
So besides simply believing because it is what someone else has said is not necessary. When we have every word that precedes from the mouth of the Father.
I could give other examples however if I do my fear is that many may turn away from truth in ignorance.
Shalom John Talmid
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#11
Dec 27, 2018
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#11
Lanolin said:
Well am just saying the angel of the Lord said his name is Gabriel. Look in Luke.
The OP asked who he was I was just giving his name.
Click to expand...
Is the definite article in Luke 1. I'll have to look it up later.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#12
Jul 18, 2017
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#12
Scrobulous said:
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
Click to expand...
Whenever we see *THE angel of the LORD* in the OT we need to stop and examine everything in connection with that appearance. Generally it will be a reference to the pre-incarnate Christ, and worship will be offered to this angel. However, when Jacob wrestled with God, we are not told that that was the angel of the LORD, but "a man". But after the wrestling Jacob said "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved", so he called the name of that place Peniel ( פְּנִיאֵ֑ל) which literally means "face of God".

However when we see *AN angel of the LORD* it is just an angel (including the one who destroyed Sennacharib's army), although one needs to check the Hebrew text to see the correct word. Sometimes "the angel of the LORD" has been called "an angel of the LORD" incorrectly.

Moses met *THE angel of the LORD* at the burning bush, and it is Christ who was seen by Moses at other times on Mt. Sinai. The reason being that "No man hath seen God [the Father] at any time" (John 1:18) since "God [the Father] is a Spirit" (John 4:24). God the Father has chosen to reveal Himself through the Son in both the OT and the NT.

There are a couple of false teachings in this connection: (1) some cults identify Michael the archangel as Christ, which is simply untenable, and (2) the Mormons teach that God the Father is a "personage" who has a body. In fact the Mormons identify the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three separate Gods.
 
B

bluto

Senior Member
#13
Aug 4, 2016
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#13
Lanolin said:
Well the angel of the Lord who appeared before Zachariah, Mary and Joseph said his name was Gabriel.
Click to expand...
Let me address this post of yours "by the numbers." First of all "THE" angel of the Lord is not Gabriel or even Michael like the JW's believe. In fact, "THE" angel of the Lord is not an actual angel. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." That word means an actual angel and it can mean simply "messenger" although anges are messengers. It all depends on how the word is used in its CONTEXT.

For example at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger" and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the "malak/angel/messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

Now, this one verse is "loaded with information and who do you think is the person who will clear the way of the Lord? It's none other than John the Baptist according to Mark 1:1-4. Even though the word for angel is "malak" the context dictates that it was John and he is not an ange. In fact, the prophet "Malachi" well his name is from the word "malak" and we know that he is a human being just like John the Baptist. Does that make sense to you lanolin?

Like I stated, Malachi 3:1 is loaded with information. Who's the Lord whom we seek will come to His temple? Or who in the verse is the "malak/angel/messenger of the covenant in whom we will delight? And what covenant are we talking about and who made it and when was it made? I'll expand on all of this as we go along and prove "The" angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Btw, nehemiah6 addressed some of this material. And one more thing, "The" angel of the Lord never appears as the angel of the Lord in the New Testament. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

Well-known member
#14
Dec 15, 2018
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#14
No I'm afraid the Bible makes perfect sense to me but other people dont.

If you want to complicate things by insisting an angel is not an angel well have fun wresting scriptures to say what you want it to mean.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

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#15
Jul 28, 2012
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#15
In each example where the phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is used, he is represented as the messenger of Jehovah. The phrase “The Angel of Jehovah” is only used to describe the spokesman of deity. This term is never applied to anyone else in scripture. He is always functioning as the spokesman of the divine triad. In each case, this is deity appearing in human form. In every example, those to whom The Angel of Jehovah appeared always understood, at some point, that he was God and they honored him as such. The Angel of Jehovah always assumed divine authority in each of these Old Testament exemplars. He will always be seen serving as the agent of communication, hence the term “The Angel of Jehovah.” He is angelic not in nature but in function. In nature, he is God. In function, he is the messenger in the triadic unity.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#16
Dec 27, 2018
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#16
bluto said:
Let me address this post of yours "by the numbers." First of all "THE" angel of the Lord is not Gabriel or even Michael like the JW's believe. In fact, "THE" angel of the Lord is not an actual angel. The Hebrew word for "angel" is "malak." That word means an actual angel and it can mean simply "messenger" although anges are messengers. It all depends on how the word is used in its CONTEXT.

For example at Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my "malak/angel/messenger" and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the "malak/angel/messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts."

Now, this one verse is "loaded with information and who do you think is the person who will clear the way of the Lord? It's none other than John the Baptist according to Mark 1:1-4. Even though the word for angel is "malak" the context dictates that it was John and he is not an ange. In fact, the prophet "Malachi" well his name is from the word "malak" and we know that he is a human being just like John the Baptist. Does that make sense to you lanolin?

Like I stated, Malachi 3:1 is loaded with information. Who's the Lord whom we seek will come to His temple? Or who in the verse is the "malak/angel/messenger of the covenant in whom we will delight? And what covenant are we talking about and who made it and when was it made? I'll expand on all of this as we go along and prove "The" angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Btw, nehemiah6 addressed some of this material. And one more thing, "The" angel of the Lord never appears as the angel of the Lord in the New Testament. :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Click to expand...
Yes, Lanolin does not distinguish between "an" angel of the Lord (no definite article) and "the" angel of the Lord (with direct article)

That's why I asked him if the direct article (the) is in Luke. Because there is a difference between when the Bible says "an" angel of the Lord and "the" angel of the Lord.

Just like there is a difference between "sons of God" in Job 1 and THE Son of God. The sons of God in Job 1 are angels, but the Son of God is the monogene (only one) Son of God, Jesus Christ.
 
M

Macabeus

Banned
#17
Dec 27, 2018
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#17
Lanolin said:
No I'm afraid the Bible makes perfect sense to me but other people dont.

If you want to complicate things by insisting an angel is not an angel well have fun wresting scriptures to say what you want it to mean.
Click to expand...
"angel" means messenger. The beings you are referring to are messengers. But oldhermit is correct in saying the word has more than one usage, and he is correct in his definition of THE angel of the Lord.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#18
Feb 27, 2010
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#18
Scrobulous said:
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
Click to expand...
You should find a couple of blogs I did Here and Here helpful...
 
S

Starflower7

Member
#19
Sep 25, 2018
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18
#19
Scrobulous said:
The wikipedia article on the Angel of the Lord (or Angel of God) summarises the appearances of the Angel in the bible but there is no consensus on who he is.
In some passages the Angel of the Lord is the Lord. On other occasions he distinguishes himself from the Lord. Some think the angel is Christ, some that he isn’t (based on Hebrews 1:5). I noticed that when a man encountered God and asked His name, God avoided answering, ‘why do you ask my name?’
If you think the Angel is christ in the old testament, consider that He kills 70,000 people in 2 Samuel 24:15. This does not mean it wasn’t Christ. Christ is the Judge of the world.
So, is the Angel of the Lord an angel, or God and if God then I guess He must be christ, although some think Moses met with the Father, but remember that Acts 7:38 says that Moses spoke with an angel at mount Sinai.
To support the angel theory, in Acts 12:15 the people thought that it was Peter’s angel at the door, not Peter himself; that is, they thought each person has ‘their’ own angel. In this case the Lord might have His own special angel too.
What does the forum think?
Click to expand...
I think that context shows whether the passage is talking about AN angel, or THE Angel of the Lord (whom I believe is pre-Incarnation Jesus, just to be clear). If you look at the passages of Gen. 16:7, 13, Hagar treats the Angel as God. Same with Abraham (Gen. 22:11, 12, 15-18). But in other cases the angel of the Lord seems to refer to just an angel like Gabriel. I think it makes sense that Jesus would manifest Himself as an angel in Heaven before His Incarnation, just as He manifested Himself and became a man on earth.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

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#20
Jul 28, 2012
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#20
Starflower7 said:
I think that context shows whether the passage is talking about AN angel, or THE Angel of the Lord (whom I believe is pre-Incarnation Jesus, just to be clear). If you look at the passages of Gen. 16:7, 13, Hagar treats the Angel as God. Same with Abraham (Gen. 22:11, 12, 15-18). But in other cases the angel of the Lord seems to refer to just an angel like Gabriel. I think it makes sense that Jesus would manifest Himself as an angel in Heaven before His Incarnation, just as He manifested Himself and became a man on earth.
Click to expand...
In which examples do you feel like "The Angel of Jehovah" is represented as anything less that deity?
 
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