Baptism Debate - who did the best job?

Here’s a recent debate between the protestant calvinist radio show personality Matt Slick and a traditional Catholic. Its two part videos. The topic was baptism. So who do all of you believe did the best job at presenting biblical truth?

Here’s the 1st video to the beginning of the debate…


And here is the 2nd part of that debate....

Not a Matt Slick fan - so I will pass on the video.

I really don't have hours to watch the video but I will hazard a guess and say the traditional Catholic won the debate.

Don’t have time to watch the videos but if you want to start a thread about
baptism, what you want to know what you think etc, I’m sure people on here
will give an opinion.

Yeah, i would probably agree with you, not seeing it,

However, I would be more worried about what is the truth, not who won a debate, if the person who won the debate is wrong, think of those who follow his arguments because he won a debate!

It is almost a certainly that opinions will be offered.

Yeah, regardless of who may be considered as winning the debate you should follow the Lord always as led by the Holy Spirit and not be overly swayed by opinion.

Personally I would have to say the Catholic did the best job in that debate. He presented plenty of scripture to back up his position. Matt either would not addresss those scriptures, or he'd attempt to disregard them by claiming they mean something other than what they say.

Do any of you agree with my assessment ?

Personally I have my own bias. Neither of them discussed the foundation of water baptism and what it points to as a shadow or cerinimoinal law which is in the Old Testament.

If the foundation is destroyed how could we find the understanding needed for that doctrine?

Are you saying water baptism points to old covenant law of circumcision whereby one entered the old covenant? If so, I'd agree. I believe the Catholic was making that case, which is that one enters the new covenant Church through water baptism .

Thanks for the reply. I hope you can bear with me.

Circumcision is more of a sign that points ahead to our blood husband Christ suffering beforehand and the glory that did follow. The first resurrection..We can I believe see that in the parable found in Exodus 4 below .

It would appear the bloody husband was in respect to the Lord. Moses had ben circumcised on the 8th day.

Exodus 4:24-26 King James Version (KJV)And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

Water baptism with water representing the unseen Holy Spirit was used when a new priests had a desire to become a member of the priesthood. This was up until the Son of man Jesus began his ministry being sent out into the wilderness as our scapegoat (Mathew 4)
Exodus 29:3-5 King James Version (KJV)And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket, with the bullock and the two rams.And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.And thou shalt take the garments, and put upon Aaron the coat, and the robe of the ephod, and the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the curious girdle of the ephod:

It was the meat of the discussion in John 3:25-26 as to why John from the tribe of Levi baptized a member of the tribe of Judah and now he was doing the officiating baptizing others that had a desire to become a priest. as if he was a Levite.

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him John 3:25-26

It was the time of reformation when visual kings used of the pagan nations were no longer needed to be used as a parable for the time then present The Kings of king after the order of Melchisedec, king of Salem(as the peace of God) , priest of the most high God as our high priest had come after the manner of Melchisedec to establish the new order of priest kings . he call us kings as a kingdom of persist men and woman alike sent out into the world with the gospel .

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

That is how I understand water baptism a ceremonial law or shadow as something we cannot judge each other by. Not all Levites were priest only those who were given a desire to be part of the ministry .

Matt Slick! My brother! We agree on almost everything!

Great guy, God bless him and his family.

He wins by default!

The man Christ Jesus died, was buried, and rose again, the Gospel of Christ.

How can a person skip water baptism when it is part of the Gospel of Christ, and we have to identify with the man Christ Jesus, that we repent, die out to sin, water baptized to lay down those sins, and receive the Spirit to newness of life.

Jesus said a person must be born of the water, and Spirit.

The Bible talks of the flood concerning water, and Noah and his family saved, and said the like figure also does now save us, not the washing away of the filth of the flesh, but a good conscience towards God.

The Bible says if we are buried with Christ by baptism into death, we shall also rise with Him, and we can only be buried with Him by water baptism, and we are a living sacrifice unto God.

Peter preached water baptism for the remission of sins, and Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, were all baptized in Jesus' name, which Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus said He came in His Father's name, the Son inherited the name from the Father, and the Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.

Those that were baptized unto John's baptism had to be baptized again in the name of Jesus.

There is too many scriptures concerning water baptism, and that it is necessary, and you cannot take away part of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and you must identify with what Christ as a human went through for you are a human also.

If a person did not get water baptized by no fault of their own, then it can be bypassed, like people that never heard the word of God can be saved by believing in a God that created all things, and loving people, and asking God to forgive them for anything that is amiss.

And Paul said we do not void out the law through faith, but we establish the law, which we fulfill the law.

But this faith alone, and not saved by works is the culprit, so they think they do not have to have works.

But the Bible says charity, love in action, works, is greater than faith, and John said, do not love in word, and in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth, for it to be love that is active in your life.

And faith works by love, for it is love alone, and everything stems from that.

And the Bible says it is the work of faith, for everything we do, and think, is a work, so if we are not saved by works, then how are we saved.

They are trying to make water baptism out to be a work, and say we are not saved by works, when confessing Christ, and having faith is a work, and water baptism is part of the salvation plan of God, for it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

And faith has to have works of love, or it is not faith, for faith works by love, and charity, love in action, is greater than faith.

We are saved by faith when we first confess Christ, for we have not received the Spirit yet, and our works according to the flesh cannot save us.

But they want to carry faith alone in their walk with Christ.

But then Paul said after we receive the Spirit that we have to have charity for faith to be active in our life.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity then he is nothing, and people that do not have charity by caring for the poor and needy they have erred from the faith.

And James said if they do not have charity, and pointed out caring for the poor and needy the same as Paul, then their faith is dead.

So Paul and James say the same thing all the while many people fight over the two, saying not saved by works, saved by works, and do not find the harmony between them.

They do not understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, and according to the Spirit, for when we first confess Christ we are still in the flesh, and have not received the Spirit yet, so it is faith alone, but after we receive the Spirit then Paul is saying the same things as James, have charity, works of love, or your faith does not count.'

But they say we do not have to have works when charity is greater than faith, and it has to be done in works, for charity is love in action, or else faith does not count.

I would suggest we look at the whole context and do not wonder (be surprised)

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.John 3:3 -7

It is a another way of saying a person must be born again . Water birth the first, spirit birth the second . Human parents give birth to the corruptible flesh our supernatural God as the father of spirits gives birth to our new spirits that will never die

Water is used with clay to represent the flesh of mankind. Water like blood are used in various parables to give us the hidden spiritual understanding . Water like blood is a metaphor for Spirit.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a unseen work of God who will not share his glory with corrupted flesh of mankind .. water baptism is a ceremonial law used as a shadow having it root as a foundation in the old testament as a purifying rite used when a new member of the priesthood had a desire to minister the things of God .

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:

This debate only highlights the difficulty that we as Christians have to endure. 1/2 of us feel that the bible teaches that we must be water baptized to be saved. 1/2 of us feel the bible teaches it is unneccesary to be water baptized in order to be saved.

Which one is the right path? Both doctrines cannot be right? Or can both doctrines be right?

I'll tell you how it is imo: This is a USELESS debate.

I have always maintained that its a useless debate and this is THE self-inflicted wound of Christianity. The only reason this debate exists is because churches are like a government bureaucracy these days and you need to wait WEEKS and sometimes even MONTHS to get baptized in some churches. What is worse is that they dont TELL YOU to get baptized straight away, YOU have to make the initiative, and often times the ones who do are BOTHERED with questioning and questioning and questioning instead of looking at the biblical standards of faith and repentance. What prevents you from being baptized if you believe in Jesus? NOTHING according to the example given of Philip and the Ethiopian!

So the solution is: BAPTIZE IMMEDIATELY. Then its irrelevant whether its needed for salvation or not, and the debate dies down, because everyone is already baptized.

I will say that if someone claims to be saved and REFUSES to get water baptized, I would be WORRIED for that individual, something is wrong. A bit of water aint never hurt nobody! If you're in a charismatic church you might even start speaking in tongues, Lord knows that'll throw off somebody.

EDIT: One more thing, COMMON SENSE is also useful here. Lets think about it: Someone accepts Jesus as Lord, starts living right, but is in a situation where they cant get baptized, like in a prison in North Korea. IS JESUS gonna cast him to hell because he wasnt dipped in water? That would be ridicilous. Surely the Lord is quick to show mercy and realizes our individual circumstances!

I don't think that both can be right.
There are doctrinal differences that are taught upon the same conclusion.

If you don't then you will not be saved, if you do you will be saved.

I often wonder if the following applies here

1 Corinthians 3:9-15
9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

3:11–15 Paul had established the church at Corinth on the foundation of Christ. gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw: These building materials refer to the quality of work done by the Corinthians, and possibly also to their motivations or the kinds of doctrines they taught. The Day speaks of the time when Christ will judge the merits of His servants’ work (see 2 Cor. 5:10), not whether they receive forgiveness of sin. Likewise, fire does not refer to the “eternal fire” of damnation (see Rev. 20:10) but to the evaluation of believers’ works (see Rev. 2:18, 19; 3:18; 22:12). Fire proves the quality of gold, but it consumes wood, hay, and stubble. Some “good work” is actually self-centered aggrandizement. The true value of such “service” will become obvious to all in the day of God’s judgment (see Rev. 3:17, 18). (Bible study notes)

I think it does.

What we teach and preach will be tested.

Yet we still be saved?

What is the true foundation.
It is Jesus.

What did Jesus require if us to be saved?

John 6:28-29
28 They replied, “We want to perform God’s works, too. What should we do?”
29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

Then he says

John 16:5-9
The Work of the Holy Spirit
5 “But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going.6 Instead, you grieve because of what I’ve told you.7 But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.8 And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment.9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.


It is faith in Jesus.

I agree they don't even suggest where the foundation of the doctrine water washing ceremonies has its roots as to the reason . It would seem they would believe men could take that for granted as some sort of common knowledge.

Interesting points you make.

May I proffer my view as someone who has baptised many people.

I totally agree with you.
If someone professes faith in Jesus they should be baptised straight away.
No questions asked other than profession of faith.

They should not be observed to be seen to be worth of it.
Shame on the church, as they do that.

Common sense as you say.
Yes let's use that. Our sister Rose will tell you that.
Her son in prison, serious crime. Came to Jesus.
Was not allowed to be baptised.

With regards to not willing to be baptised.
It can take two directions and I have experienced both.

My nephew would not get baptised.
I went with him on a course at church, baptism came up.
On the way home I asked why he was not baptised?

He replied"Because I'm not perfect, I still sin"

I said to him "If you waiting to be so then you ain't gonna be baptised"
Jesus saved you as a sinner, loves the sinner.

He got baptised two weeks later.

Then someone else I spoke to did not want to get baptised.
The reason being was that some big testimony had to be given and she was not comfortable doing that. A fear of speaking in public.

I said to her "Just stand up and say, I'm getting baptised because I have placed my faith in Jesus"

She did that.

I refused to baptise someone when asked.
I wasn't sure he was genuine.

So when I met with him in asked

Romans 10:9-13
9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

He said no.
I asked can you, will you do that and mean it.
He said "Not now maybe at some point"

Then I told him I could not baptise him.
He left the church.

My cards on the table here.

I do not believe Baptism saves, but I do really feel it's a significant spiritual marker.