Not By Works

you know, it sure would be nice if people proclaimed the Resurrection , the Blood, the Holy Sprit in us , manifesting the fruits of the Sprit as much as they do the Law, the Sabbath.

proclaim the thing that save and sanctify , instead of the Law, which was week.

just dreaming I guess, but it would be nice.

FAITH PLUS WORKS = ?/FAITH WITHOUT WORKS = ?



Prior to his “treatise” on faith James refers the readers to that which identifies sin in the life of the believer.He says:


“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”(James 2:8-13)


Here James clearly points to the law as that which convinces(persuades) persons that they have sinned. Notice the elements of the law which are mentioned:


Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not kill.


Where was it said and who was it that said the above?


“And God spake all these words, saying,”(Exodus 20:1)


This clearly points to the ten commandments as the royal law(Romans 13:8-10) and the law of liberty being referred to by James. Believers will be judged by this law and their transgressions will be severely dealt with if they have not shown mercy to others.


With this possibility in mind he ensures his readers understand our actions are the true reflection of what we believe. Notice previously he criticized the practice of believers(James 2:1) being partial and he now emphasizes the fact that even if we believe and do not practice that which is associated with that belief we have a faith that is dead.


As Jesus said:


“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”(John 8:31)


And Paul elaborated:


“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”(Romans 6:1-6)



James states clearly our actions determine our state of salvation as he says:


“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)


Can Faith Save?Can Faith Alone Save?Can Faith Without Works Save?


Notice he is asking about salvation.He says:


“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”(James 2:17)
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”(James 2:20)
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”(James 2:26)


Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:


“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)


And:


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)


He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:


“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

N.B.The righteousness was only proven when Abraham obeyed the word concerning Isaac.(scripture was fulfilled)

James is not saying works are for others to see but rather, after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying/asking;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified?


In effect,without the appropriate works we cannot be saved.Paul further confirms this when he says:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."(Ephesians 2:10)

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."(Titus 2:11-14)

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)

We ignore these scriptures and gloss over and twist the plain teaching of the same to our peril.

You do the very thing I have warned about.And this is the the practice of everyone who teach as you do.All use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.Notice the encounter:

"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,and said
unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." [Luke 4:9-12]

Scripture was used by the devil but Jesus produced scripture that regulated and put into context that which was quoted correctly but out of context by the devil.

You also gloss over the passage in James as you claim, "he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men". This is obviously false as James clearly asks:

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?As I also said:

"Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)

And:

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)

He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

He is not saying works are for others to see but after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified.

There is no contradiction between Paul and James but if you ignore the passages in which Paul speaks to the role of works in the life of the child of God then you will believe as you do.Here is a reminder of one:

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)

Your whole point is missed by one mistake

You quoted james as saying,

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can Faith Save?Can Faith Alone Save?Can Faith Without Works Save?

and you asked the wrong question, because you focused on the wrong words

You completely skipped where james asked the question, what does it profit if a man says he has faith...

His point is not does faith alone save, his point is does that man have real faith (living) or does he have no faith at all (dead) and is claiming he has something which is not true.

Then he goes to show what the difference between a living faith which saves and a dead faith which will never save

Living faith works (as paul said in eph 2:8-10) because if is born out of being made a new creation, whereas a false or dead faith will serve self only, because it still is working out of the flesh as the old nature.

If you can not get that right, the rest of your thinking will be flawed.

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Of course, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Your whole point is missed by one mistake

You quoted james as saying,

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)

Can Faith Save?Can Faith Alone Save?Can Faith Without Works Save?

and you asked the wrong question, because you focused on the wrong words

You completely skipped where james asked the question, what does it profit if a man says he has faith...

His point is not does faith alone save, his point is does that man have real faith (living) or does he have no faith at all (dead) and is claiming he has something which is not true.

Then he goes to show what the difference between a living faith which saves and a dead faith which will never save

Living faith works (as paul said in eph 2:8-10) because if is born out of being made a new creation, whereas a false or dead faith will serve self only, because it still is working out of the flesh as the old nature.

If you can not get that right, the rest of your thinking will be flawed.

Should be simple, but sadly people who will not look will not see, they will continue to look based on a few words they think supports them and ignore the rest.

Once again you did not explain what it means.
This is for @Matthew55 too.
Please see

http://jesusalive.cc/ques167.htm

Wouldn't it make MORE sense to USE THE JEWISH DEFINITION of the word BELIEVE ? ? ?

I means to PUT your whole weight and TRUST in whom you claim to BELIEVE in for your SALVATION.

Actually, salvation is only possible when one stops working for it. Salvation is a gift, we do not put God in our debt by working for it.

Paul is very clear...here is one to start

Roman 4:4 - 4:5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You have completely misunderstood James he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men.

There is an interloper voice in James so you need to be careful to separate out the interloper voice from James' response

Actually, salvation is only possible when one stops working for it. Salvation is a gift, we do not put God in our debt by working for it.

Paul is very clear...here is one to start

Roman 4:4 - 4:5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You have completely misunderstood James he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men.

There is an interloper voice in James so you need to be careful to separate out the interloper voice from James' response

You know, I always take issue with the words follow Jesus and sometimes I speak up, other times not.

We as His body or tabernacle as a picture, if born again is a temple unto Him. Filled with His Presence. Then baptized in His power to do the works of God.

We aren't sheep but are becoming Sons. Sonship is also positional as it's being worked in our lives so again...we aren't sheep following Jesus but one with Jesus, same as He was one with Father.

Israel is sheep. They follow the Torah, Old Testament "dabar". Never was indwelt.

Thank you for your reference, it was interesting. "rightly dividing" the word, for some, has come to another level. That level is dividing the word into those NT words that belong to the "law of Moses" (and can be ignored in regards to our salvation because they have been superceeded by the "gospel of grace") and the NT words that belong to the "gospel of grace" which are what we only need to be concerned with for our salvation.

So, I have heard that some Christians go so far as to say, the sayings of Jesus were grounded in the "law of Moses" and so we do not have to be worried about these words for our salvation, because the law of Moses is done away, and has been superceeded by the "gospel of grace". It is the words of Paul that we have to concern ourselves with in regards to our salvation, only.

Therefore "rightly dividing" the word means we put away those words associated with the law of Moses in the NT, and adhere only to those words associated with the gospel of grace.

That is why decon can say, any words that add to our salvation based on a few words of Paul, are false, even though words from Jesus adds to their gospel of grace. He won't tell you, but this small group believe that most of the words of Jesus in the NT should not be read, they should be "rightly divided" out of the word of God because they have to do with the superceeded and done-away-with law of Moses.

What do you think?

In effect,without the appropriate works we cannot be saved.Paul further confirms this when he says:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."(Ephesians 2:10)

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. Of course, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Was Abraham justified before he offered Isaac or before that?
Was he justified before God when he heard God and belived in his call

Genesis 12:1-5

Promises to Abram
(Acts 7:2–5)
1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. 5 Then Abram took Sarai his wife and Lot his brother’s son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people whom they had acquired in Haran, and they departed to go to the land of Canaan. So they came to the land of Canaan.

He heard God calling him and he believed and went.

Or was he justified when

Genesis 15:1-11

God’s Covenant with Abram
(Heb. 11:8–10)
1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”
2 But Abram said, “Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3 Then Abram said, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”
5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
7 Then He said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.”
8 And he said, “Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?”
9 So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.”
10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.
11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

Look at verse 6.

He was considered righteous before God and given the promise of his inheritance long before he offered up Issac was born.

Would you say that to be considered righteous before God is to be saved?
If not why not, if so why so?

If it is to saved then obviously Abram was saved well before he offered up Isaac.
If not then we have an issue as the above verses say otherwise.

So I say Abram was considered righteous by his faith.
Heard God, and left his land.
Heard God and belived he would have an heir.

Belief and faith.

Therefore this led to him offering up Isaac.
His faith led to what he did.
Not to prove before God but because he knew God.
His offering was a justification of his faith.

As James said

James 2:14

Faith Without Works Is Dead
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2)
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Works will always follow faith, true genuine saving faith.
They do not save us but show that we are saved.

We have an inheritance but it's not based on works.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Finally

Hebrews 11:8-10

Faithful Abraham
(Gen. 15:1–6; 21:1–7)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

It would be a little clearer if in Genesis 15:6 it had said, he believed in the Lord and was saved unto Eternal Life.

But it does not mention Abraham being saved? It does says, And the Lord accounted it unto him for righteousness. So Abraham is told that his seed/children would be numbered as the sands of the sea. Abraham believes this will happen, and the Lord accounted it unto him for righteousness. Just like anything that we do that is of a righteous nature. But this does not tell me that the Lord saved him for all eternity, because Abraham makes one statement that he believed what the Lord was telling him.

Abrahams faith was tried at that point and he passed the test. The big test that would perfect his faith came later, and he passed that test too. Now with a perfect faith, we know he will have Eternal Life with God. Before that final test, I feel like he was making his way to be found sanctified through his righteous acts as written in scripture, and do not believe he would have found sanctification unless he had followed the Lords will and offered his son as a sacrifice. if Abraham had rejected the Lords command to sacrifice his son, I feel that the Lord would have rejected him.

We too may have trials set before us, and what we do or how we obey will definately make a difference as to whether the Lord will accept or reject us also. Do we have a vibrant/living faith, and obey and see our faith perfected, or do we not obey and prove we have a dead faith. Regardless about our profession of fiath to our congregation on Sunday.

Why in heavens name would James be teaching us about a faith that justifies us before man? Does man save us? No! That seems to be a proposterous position to take on what James clearly is teaching, "a faith that justifies us to God".


How do you come to the conlusion that James is teaching us a faith that justifies us to man and not God? I would be interested to here your explanation.

Why in heavens name would James be teaching us about a faith that justifies us before man? Does man save us? No! That seems to be a proposterous position to take on what James clearly is teaching, "a faith that justifies us to God".


How do you come to the conlusion that James is teaching us a faith that justifies us to man and not God? I would be interested to here your explanation.