Jesus's sacrifice

i do not think that the purpose of the fulfillment of any prophesy is merely 'to fulfill it'

is Christ God ?

I don't think that God is going to cast anyone in the lake of fire for all of eternity. It is God's will and desire that all shall be saved. It says this in the bible.

I think the answer lies with the blood sacrifice. See Leviticus 16
In the OT the priest would make a sacrifice first for his own sin.
Then sacrifice a bull to atone for the sin of everyone (plus there was
the scape goat etc).

The priest was basically putting his own sin and the sin of the nation onto
animals.

Leviticus 16:30 NKJV
[30] For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to
cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.


With Jesus he did not have to first make atonement for his own sin. But
he was the sacrifice, the sin of the world was placed on Jesus, He was our
substitute.

He became sin for us when He Himself knew no sin. He became the sacrifice for
us. He was also the priest in one sense as He freely offered Himself. He is also
prophet as through Jesus all the prophecies were fulfilled. Also King!

Jesus was the complete package, the only package who had the qualifications to
bear our sin. To just think about the sacrifice alone doesn’t give the full picture.
We need to bear the other attribute in mind too.

Also remember we are the scapegoat goat. Remember the scapegoat was allowed
to be set free, while the other was sacrificed.

I think Jesus represents both goats, the sacrifice he made and his resurrection. I don't think the sacrifice was for substitution, but for purpose of producing repentance. We ask God for forgiveness because we believe in Jesus,

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: Lev.16:21

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh themshall have mercy. Pro.28:13

So the Great White Throne Judgement is just a myth?

Scripture claims anyone who rejects Christ (God) ends up in the Lake of Fire!!

God can't forsake himself. Not even for a micro second.

[[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psa.22:1

It's a question Jesus knew the answer to very well and had nothing to do with him actually being abandoned.

Take a look at all these verses

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Substitution

Yeshua on a few occasions claimed that He was, I AM.

Yeshua on His own admittance revealed that He was God.

I believe that speaks clearly about who Yeshua was and still is!!

Jesus did in fact ask the question to the Father why He was being forsaken.

I've looked at them Miri. None of those verses teach penal substitution. Many of them do teach that people who were not responsible for certain sins committed, were still affected by them.

Where those who follow Jesus are concerned, Paul said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

If penal substitution was true, there would be no way Paul could understand the sufferings of our Savior, or be made like him in death. No way. Do you see this? But if Jesus's sufferings were the result of being persecuted for obeying God, that is something believers could have fellowship with, could feel, could experience.

In speaking of our dear Saviors passion, the bible says,

For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

This isn't saying people hated God, and took it out on his son. It saying people hated God, and hated his son also. And for us he said,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you Jn.15:20

The cross isn't the wrath of God falling on Jesus. It's the sins of mankind, the wrath of man against God falling on Jesus.

Jesus did in fact ask the question to the Father why He was being forsaken. Of course, Jesus knew the answer and that is because He was now carrying the sins of the world and that His father could not look at sin.

After paying the penalty for sin by descending into hell for 3 days He was restored to the Father that He has always known. There is a consequence for sin but Jesus was able and willing to pay this penalty by dying on the cross. Before being crucified Jesus prayed to the Father to have this cup taken from Him but nevertheless, also prayed that the Father's will and desire be accomplished by His dying on the cross for the sins of the world.

He was definitely forsaken by the Father otherwise Jesus would not have asked the Father, 'why?'. It's not that Jesus did not already know the answer but this most important question was asked for our own benefit in understanding the consequences of sin and that there is a price that has to be paid as a result.

You are correct in saying that Jesus knew the answer very well for it is probably the most important question that has ever been asked, one that everyone should be asking for themselves as well because it pertains to our personal relationship with the Lord and ultimately for our salvation.

Jesus suffered for us, not in place of us.

Seems clear to me through scripture that the wrath of God did indeed fall on Jesus when He took on the sins mankind and died on the cross.

Isn't this the same thing?

The sins that come from mankind, jealousy, hatred, false witness, murder, were inflicted on Jesus at the cross. And this Jesus endured for all mankind. He suffered for us all, not in place of us all.

Jesus was sinless, but condemned by man or, Jesus was sinless and condemned by God. The former is right, the latter is wrong.

The scripture is certainly correct, no one comes to the Father except by Jesus. The bible does not specifically state that anyone is thrown in the lake of fire as a result of the judgement, it only states the penalty for sin. The bible also states that it is God's will and desire that none shall perish. It is inconceivable that God is not capable of accomplishing His own will and desire regarding salvation.

I believe that every word in the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and will certainly come to pass as stated but the reality is the entire Word of God has not yet been made known. In Revelation the apostle John was told not to record what the 7 Thunders uttered, Paul was told not to relate a certain matter in the vision that he saw, and it is not known what Jesus wrote on the ground with His finger when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Him. When it is finally revealed what was said, saw, and written in these instances it is certainly possible that the whole dynamic of the perception of salvation might be changed from what is currently understood.

None of what will be revealed will contradict what is already known and stated in scripture but the understanding may certainly be changed, and this for the ultimate glory of God and for the benefit for those that may otherwise eternally separated from the love of God.

A true atheist is one who denies there is a God, therefore is one who never admits they are a sinner who needs forgiveness. God desires that no one perishes. In your view, does the atheist end up with God, or in the Lake of Fire?

I smell the very strong odor of a works doctrine!

The former rather than later is correct in regards that God requires a just punishment as a response to transgressions.

Jesus paid the price that was required for these transgressions committed by man.

You are correct in saying that Jesus was sinless, in fact, He still remains sinless. Being without sin qualified Him to sacrifice His life for us who are with sin.

Jesus may have indeed been condemned by man but this condemnation was not authorized or recognized by God and was to no effect as crucifixion was not even possible unless the Father allowed His son to be killed for the remission of sins of the world.

Jesus did not want to go through this horrible ordeal but was willing to abide by what the Father decided. Jesus, in fact, suffered in place of us all otherwise we are still in our sin and will suffer condemnation by eternal separation from the love of God. God will have blotted us from His memory. For all practical and spiritual purposes we will no longer exist.

I believe Jesus was viewed as sinful, but not by his father.


God sees all, both good and evil (Pro.15:3).

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen.6:5

Jesus did suffer the sins in this world, but unjustly.

For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Heb.12:3