Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

Hevosmies hinted at it when he said if we have free will to disobey God that means we also have free will to basically "give back" salvation after conversion. I pointed out the impossibility of that as our salvation isn't founded on us, but is completely based on Christ. Once salvation is given, God will not receive it back.

I don't know exactly what Hesmovies believes on what I am going to say, but I used to be a dyed in the wool Arminian, and I did not believe you could lose your salvation and then get saved again, (still don't). Ie, I did not believe in multiple regenerations. The vast majority of NOSAS that I have known and know don't believe in multiple new births. And they believe that youre not saved based on works at all, you're saved and kept by grace through faith. So the chief issue is not works, but heart condition. Yet what you say and do reveal your heart condition.

I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but I have closely studied both.

It all comes down to proper exegesis of Scripture. I'm sure you'll work it all out by discovering your errors and then you'll embrace the Doctrines of Grace fully.

If I could be convinced by scripture of irresistable grace, that would probably tip the scales for me. And if limited atonement means Christ died for for every man, but His death is only applied to those who believe. I have heard conflicting views from Calvinists on that, or at least they seem to conflict

IG teaches that the grace of God is irresistible, but only to the elect, not to all mankind. It isn't that man cannot resist God's grace, but that his grace will reach all the chosen; John 6:37. Your other sticking point is generally the same for all but we've been under traditional teachings so long only Scripture can overcome it.

Thanks. I'm not quite following your meaning in your words beginning at "your other sticking point". Are you saying you believe Jesus died for all men, but His death only applied to those who believe, or that Jesus died for all KINDS of men, and not every man, as many Calvinists assert.

Sorry for my uncertainty on what you mean.

Milee777
Well, you have kicked off another Calvinism versus Arminianism debate and are probably thinking why bother with these forums? Where is this unity of the spirit we hear about? What about Hebrews 8:11 based on Jer 31:34?
No longer will they teach their neighbour, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

It seems odd that christians do disagree, but on non essential matters we do. The trick is not to get obsessed with winning the argument.

For what it is worth I am with you, an Arminianist I think we are called. That is we don’t believe that God made people for hell. Of course the TULIP brigade (calvinists) have waded in with their patronising monologues and book recommendations, but of course, there are books arguing the other side. This argument has been running for centuries. It seems it is possible for a man of good conscience to take different views on this. Why? Because, as I am sure you know, it doesn’t matter! Believe in either position changes nothing. Some are saved, some will be lost. For me, the calvinists have to ask why God doesn’t save all, since according to them, the free will of man is of no account. How does he decide what percentage to select? You see, awkward questions.

You will end up drawing your own conclusion based on what kind of God you think we worship.

Jesus "is the propitiation..." 1 John 2:2. I want to concentrate on that portion of the text, we know the rest of the verse, but let's examine this portion. Propitiation means he satisfied God's wrath by paying our debt of sin. That also means it has been accepted and is therefore paid in full.

Accepting has nothing to do with it as far as man is concerned because that is God's place. God therefore accepted it. I'm not sure how we've transferred what God accepts as a payment to man having to accept it. That places us in the stead of God if you think about it. A sacrifice was always for God to accept, consider the OT system, Hebrews &c.

"World" means not only Jews. God didn't accept Jesus' sacrifice in the stead of all who have ever lived as their propitiation. If that were true we would have Universalism or all in hell are paying for a debt owed to God that has already once for all been paid in full.

To say man has to accept it for it to be valid and applied is in my opinion borderline sacrilege if not blasphemous. So that said I believe we should, as you do, adjust our beliefs and terminology according to Scripture.

Ok, that is a well thought position, and im not saying I disagree, but for the sake of argument, let me play the other side here

some of the Old Testament shadows seem to indicate propitiation in the OT were applied by faith

For example, the serpent lifted up. Those who looked, lived

The Levitical atonement sacrifices for sins and trespasses, the petitioner laid his hand on the head of the sacrifice, transferring sin to the sacrifice

The people instructed to fast and pray on the Day of Atonement when the priest went into the Holy place

The Israelites instructed to smear blood on their doors on the day of Passover

And in the NT, justification applied to those who believe, (Romans 4), These things do not save us any more than the act of looking at the bronze serpent, placing hands on a sacrifice, or putting blood on the door saved the Israelites, it is always the power and grace of God that saves, but these are things that are commanded, as we are commanded to believe

Now the natural man will not believe unless He is moved to believe by the Spirit. But we know that the propitiation is not applied until an elect person believes. As it is written, being justified by faith, we have peace with God

I think the chief issue, and I believe J.F. Strombeck said it best, is all of the things that God does in saving man are of such a nature that the possibility of failure at any point is shut out. Redemption from the penalty of the Law was with the incorruptible blood of Jesus Christ. This redemption price can never lose it's value. It assures an eternal redemption (Hebrews 9:12). One who has been redeemed can never again become guilty under the Law.

Justification is by God counting the infinite righteousness of Jesus to the one who simply believes. There can never be found any flaw in that righteousness. This was made possible because man's sins were reckoned to the account of Jesus. As all the demands of God's justice were then satisfied there can never be any charge brought against the person that has been justified.

As salvation is exclusively of God, as it is by grace and therefore unmerited by man, and as fallible man can contribute nothing toward his own salvation, there is no point at which there can be failure.

Salvation of one who believes in Jesus is as certain and enduring as God Himself.

And that's the whole disconnect here, no one has said otherwise in this whole comment section, not once has anyone denied that the Christian still sins. Never once. The problem Budman has is the truth that works are evidence of salvation, He will not hear this and makes up his own meaning for what this means, that the saved will product fruit. Somehow he thinks the fact we are being sanctified and are still going to sin somehow is in conflict with this when they truly have nothing to do with each other directly yet work together to glorify Him.

The only point I was ever trying to make is that the whole gospel shouldn't be "Your always saved no matter what, and you will always sin" being the central tenants and mantra to repeat always. While those are both perfectly true, lumping them together the way Bud presents them, with NO mention of any kind of real change, can keep people in the dark covered by a false sense of salvation. When you're actually offended by the mention of the real life radical change Spiritual rebirth brings, it is just strange to me. When the most important battle is seemingly preemptively ear tickling, trying make sure no one could possibly feel convicted by their wicked behavior, I just don't get it.

I mean I am strait up testifying that what Budman is speaking here literally allowed "me" personally,to stay in spiritual darkness while wearing the name "Christian", completely lost. He just can't seem to discern the words I say, if he did he could understand that these works I speak of, that are very same thing he calls the "change" of being indwelt by His Spirit BTW, these "works" are not of us. I can only speak for myself, but think it would apply across the board really, but when I am getting any kind of thanks or praise for any of these "works" the Spirit produces through me, what do you think I say? Maybe "Thank you so much, "I" worked real hard for the Lord to maintain my salvation, I'm pretty great". Nope. It's more along the lines (by "along the lines" I mean "exactly like") of, "Anything you see good in me, anything you think I'm a "great guy" for helping you with, all thanks, credit, and gratitude you have belongs to Jesus alone, because He did it. These are things the "old man" (that was put to death by His power) would have NEVER done, so ALL thanks has to go to Him. ALL glory is His.

I just simply would rather hear the believer proclaiming the POWER of Christ to change men mightily for His kingdom and glory. I want to hear the victory our God had over sin to reconcile us to Himself. To be honest I'm not really thinking much about if I can still chose to resist God, or do I at all think these should be the main focus of this whole "plan of God to redeem His creation" thing. I know I can sin, but why is that what ANY Christian would want to be the main thing they proclaim, the power of man to still resist God, will still sin forever, and can never be unsaved. Just wow, to me that is no foundation at all, has no power, personally could have sent me to hell and is just sad news really. But this is just where He has lead me to this point and I do believe the dead horse has been kicked. I pray God that this week I am better at promoting unity in the body, and that you continue to guide and draw each and every on of us closer into truth each and every day, all in love and I pray this all in Jesus name. Amen.

Ultimately, the question must be asked, without the "specific" ambiguity concerning the "sabbath", that Christ asked the scribes and pharasees:

Was the "COVENANT", either OLD, or NEW? Made FOR Man? Or? Was Man made FOR the "COVENANT?" Either old, or new!

Ya see? People these days get so "wrapped up" in their striving in KEEPING either? That they have "effectually?" Put "God in a box", and have MISSED, (while some, willingly ignore), the WHOLE POINT, of the reasoning of why there were covenants instilled, in the first place!

When reading the O.T., especially the records of the Kings of Israel? There are numerous occasions, where it was noted, that "such and such" a King, did evil in God's eyes! Not many, IF ANY, mentions are recorded as to how things seemed in man's eyes!

It is such a fine line from God's blessings, even regarding "creature comforts", if you will, and these same "creature comforts", being "idolized", or the "hands" (on upwards the "corporate ladder", so to speak) of those constructing being idolized, that over a period of time? An ENTITLEMENT "mindset", formed, by Kings, as well as tribal elders, that: "I don't WANT "my" children, to have as hard a life, as "I" had!" (THIS, is the how and where, the "beast" that riseth out of the bottomless pit, "gets" traction!) Should one require confirmation? Simply, FOLLOW THE MONEY! And, "note" where it leads, as well as how crooked the scales are, in their loving OF said money!

It simply AMAZES me, how "Much IN the box", some people have LIMITED, not only God's POWER, and SOVERIGNITY? And how LITTLE they believe our God to being, in their thinking, that He doesn't , or hasn't PREDESTINATED "EVERYONE", in being right where they are, at ANY part of this current timeline, or "earth/heaven" age!


But, it seems? ONLY the ELECT can SEE it!

That's all really good, but we should not want to stop there. Leaving behind elementary principals we should desire to grow God didn't save us just so we could punch our ticket. This is eternal life, to know Him. He saved us for a purpose, not just to float to heaven on a toadstool

It was Jesus who said, as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. If a person is saved, they will care about the state of their heart. If they don't care, I'm not saying you don't, just speaking generally, if they don't care, there's a pretty good chance that maybe there's no salvation there to be kept (by God )

Sure, people will lapse and backslide, but if they can stay there with no concern about their actions of denying God until the day the die, and knowing how longsuffering God is, how He gives a person everything they need to perservere and suffers ling with us +I would have given up on me a long time ago I have to say that person better take check with God and see if they were ever saved in the first place.

And what kind of salvation consists of believing for an instant post 456, , then going about your merry way. I don't want to be like the nine lepers who didn't turn around and praise God

Back to the original topic...elect means chosen. He chose us before the foundation of the world. Election is based on foreknowledge. He knew us before the foundation of the world. On what basis does God elect? Arminians say based on foreseen faith, Calvinist say not based on anything in us, but in God's good pleasure alone. It would seem that if the Calvinists are right, the basis of election is hidden with God and we don't know

I wrestle with these questions, but I do know that everyone who believes is born of God, and that we are called to preach the gospel to everyone. This agrees with both sides, so the questions and debates have no bearing on what we are to do and who needs to hear the Gospel.

Go with what you know, and don't be overly worried about what you don't. God will reveal it to you and me in His time

Amen to this. His Spirit guides me and I trust Him to guide everyone in the exact way, and speed He knows is perfect, also to proclaim Jesus name and glory to ALL nations. I pray we all learn from each other in love to make us better at doing this everyday.

Hey man I have a question for you. Right here you are speaking of not being able to be "unsaved", which by the way I agree with 100%. I do not believe Jesus will lose even 1 that the Father has given Him, and those He starts a good work in He will see to the end, and if they went from us they were never of us. So I do not believe that one that is truly reborn of the Spirit, can lose salvation. Clear enough? I agree with this. So when we take this and match it with your other "key points" being, "we can still choose to resist God, we will sin forever, we can't stop sinning, etc..."

Can you understand at all how that can paint a very deceptive picture for the unbeliever, and/or false convert?

Look I agree we don't lose salvation, I agree with the fact the Christian still sins, I agree with both these points. I have the whole time even though somehow in your head "works are evidence of ones salvation", means that if anyone does anything good this means they are saved. This is not, the definition you've put on this phrase is not what I mean at all obviously. If you read "works are evidence of ones salvation" and that's preaching "works", you just have no clue what I'm saying.

"works are evidence of ones salvation" is the whole root of this "debate", even though your whole argument is "we still sin, we can still resist God, we will always sin". These are true statements and are super useful when one is just paralyzed with false guilt from things recognized after rebirth. Yes we are going to battle these things, but that "battle" is ALL God, is ALL by His grace to CHANGE us for His glory. You are saying the EXACT same thing, only your whole focus seems to be on man resisting Gods power after salvation. That's what I conclude from your words.

Form all I've gathered your BIG points are "we will always sin, and never lose salvation".
This keeps people in deception thinking they are Christians when they have not been reborn.

Here is my question; Can you recognize that I am telling you that this teaching here kept me in the darkness thinking I was Christian, and would have sent me strait to hell with a cross around my neck if I would have died in that wreck. What do you say about this? Can you even see my point about the danger of presenting the gospel in this way? At least.

I am telling you right here and now, as clearly as I can, that this that you are teaching here kept me in the dark, they kept me deceived in a false understanding and false sense of security thinking I was saved while living exactly how I was before, enslaved to drugs, porn, video games, selfishness, laziness, brokenness, hopelessness.


I was All NEW (does not mean sinless), and for you to just declare the "old man" being put to death means sinless is something I've never even heard a Christian say or teach, you're the only one I've ever even heard this from before. Nope, the old man is put to death when you're granted repentance. When you turn from "my way", you are putting to death the flesh to turn and FOLLOW Jesus. So we are really saying the same thing two different ways, but you have picked your tribe and dug in for battle. I know this because you have to have put a label on me in your head from the start, to start rebuking me on things I never said at all, and absolutely do not believe. I addressed and posted your words, not what I make up. You never once posted a comment of mine saying anything you rebuked me on. So I honestly have no idea who you were even talking to half the time.

So what to you think about you're teachings keeping me in the dark?
Does this concern you in the least?

In trying to address the OP, here, as to (a) I guess, in giving "clarity" of predestination and elect are concerned? The Father, has this "Wit-Sec" program set up for His "elect." About the best way in trying to describe it, as well, as the way it functions goes. In one's trying in the understanding of it.
If one wants further clarification? Ask the Father! Not me! Cuz, I'm just understanding this myself!
The best "man", in trying to explain this, from the distant past? Is John Calvin!
Not saying I'm a "hard core calvinist", by any stretch of the definition, or imagination! But? The "day" as they say, is still young!
To those who are going through similar "experiences?" No explanation is necessary!
To those, who are not? No explanation is (even) possible!
Psalms 110:1-b.

I think the key to understanding election is the immutability of God. As Luther said, if God's love and justice are immutable, so are His other attributes, including knowledge and will

God neither looked down the corridors of time to see who believes, ( because His knowledge is immutable and He does not learn) nor did He at a certain point in time "decide" to choose us, because His Will is immutable and does not change, We were chosen in eternity, not in time

But I also believe that the reason a person is not saved is because of their own choice, not God's. It is not Gods will that any perish.

So from our perspective, in time, man must choose. But in eternal perspective, God chose before time existed

I know there is something missing in what I just wrote, so feel free anyone to add the missing piece that ties this together, (,unless it is a mystery hidden with God)

I can't lie brother, He has brought me to this same place, I don't know I could have worded it any better, or even different. The part about us being in time and space is a vital point of contention when talking about the total sovereignty of God. I think another vital point of contention is a WAY too high a view of "man", and way to low a view of God. We are not the focal point, God alone is. God was not created to glorify us, but we were made to glorify Him. He is so good the He actually deals with our wickedness in His unbelievable long suffering so we can be saved to glorify Him and grow His kingdom. Him, Him, Him, Him, thank God it's all about Him.

One last thing I want to add because I understand this problem when speaking of Gods sovereignty. I always hear "if God is in total control of everything then what about the little girl kidnapped and sold into sex slavery?" Well first and foremost that is horrible beyond nightmarish belief, and may God save each and every one of those kids, and oh my goodness may the perpetrators find mercy or justice from our King. I truly understand this problem, but can't help but mention the little girl that was kidnapped and sold into sex slavery that grew up, got out, and was saved by our Almighty Creator to go on and become the most powerful testimony to this world you can imagine. These are hard truths, and I forgot where this quote came from, but I've heard it said that "If God looked through time to see who was going to choose Him, he would see nothing but a graveyard". Maybe instead of seeing it as "God chooses people for hell?" , maybe be amazed that He would choose any of us to save at all.