Jacob's Deception

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GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
#21
Sep 28, 2015
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#21
garee said:
Jacob name was changed from meaning "the deceiver" to Israel, "one who struggles with God and man and overcomes" ,
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yes...I guess I am supposed to do something with that?
reneweddaybyday said:
Malachi 1:

1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


No mention of "while still in the womb".


And, again, as shown to you previously, what God said while Esau was "still in the womb" was the elder shall serve the younger (Gen 25:23 and Rom 9:12) which for some reason offends you.

There are enough other verses which establish the sovereignty of God without having to make any changes to what is written in Scripture. Stick to those other verses and quit changing Scripture.
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ROMANS 9: 6-13

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ROMANS 9:11


Apparently you are biblically challenged. You keep asking the most simple question over and over without understanding the answers. so sad.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#22
Mar 23, 2016
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#22
GraceAndTruth said:
ROMANS 9: 6-13

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, ROMANS 9:11
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Please note ... Rom 9:11 does not mention God hating Esau while Esau "was still in the womb" as you claim in your Post #11.




GraceAndTruth said:
Apparently you are biblically challenged. You keep asking the most simple question over and over without understanding the answers. so sad.
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Actually, what is "so sad" is that you keep changing Scripture "over and over without understanding" that God is perfectly capable of establishing His sovereignty without you having to revise what is written in your attempts to "help" Him out in that regard.

And you call me "biblically challenged" :sneaky:



 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#23
Sep 28, 2015
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#23
garee said:
Quite a few times we find that pattern the second born gets the blessing to helps us to remember our second birth is the eternal.

God had favor on Abel the second born but not Cain . God had favor on the second born Issacs but not Ismael. God had favor on Jacob the second born but not Esau .

Two generations the generation of Adam as in natural man and the generation of Christ the born again generation

God is clear: As born again believers, we are all His favorite sons! Jesus is our Firstfruit (1 Cor 15:20) and we are royal priests, the first-born sons and daughters of the King!
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Garee.........Romans 9: 6-13 says exactly what I said the bible says about this. FYI
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#24
Sep 28, 2015
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#24
EM9642 said:
Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a goddless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
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.Romans 9: 6-13 says exactly what I said the bible says about this. FYI
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#25
Jul 18, 2017
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#25
EM9642 said:
Okay this brings me to another question: do we have free will? If God already knew since before his birth that Esau would become a godless person was it ever really possible for him not to be?
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Of course. All human beings have free will, and must make free choices.

Esau chose to be a godless person but he need not have gone down that road. Human beings are free moral agents, which means they must choose to either obey God or disobey Him, obey the Gospel or disobey it. As Scripture says "But they have NOT all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16).

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Does God want everyone to obey the Gospel? Absolutely.

ROMANS 16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
 
GraceAndTruth

GraceAndTruth

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#26
Sep 28, 2015
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#26
tsk tsk..........taking what is meant for the children and giving it to the dogs.....
 
L

LPT

Guest
#27
#27
garee said:
Quite a few times we find that pattern the second born gets the blessing to helps us to remember our second birth is the eternal.

God had favor on Abel the second born but not Cain . God had favor on the second born Issacs but not Ismael. God had favor on Jacob the second born but not Esau .

Two generations the generation of Adam as in natural man and the generation of Christ the born again generation

God is clear: As born again believers, we are all His favorite sons! Jesus is our Firstfruit (1 Cor 15:20) and we are royal priests, the first-born sons and daughters of the King!
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So you are a royal priest hmm interesting...
 
G

garee

Banned
#28
Mar 28, 2016
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#28
LPT said:
So you are a royal priest hmm interesting...
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You could say like all Christians likened to the noble Bereans who searched the scripture daily .In a hope of seeking the approval of the King of kings.

Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

He calls us kings. And encourages us to search out the hidden spiritual meaning hid from those not considered kings belonging to his kingdom of priest. He gives us that honor.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#29
#29
garee said:
You could say like all Christians likened to the noble Bereans who searched the scripture daily .In a hope of seeking the approval of the King of kings.

Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

He calls us kings. And encourages us to search out the hidden spiritual meaning hid from those not considered kings belonging to his kingdom of priest. He gives us that honor.

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
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I’m happy you feel that way, as for me I am not good I am just rags.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#31
Mar 23, 2016
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#31
garee said:
Quite a few times we find that pattern the second born gets the blessing to helps us to remember our second birth is the eternal.

God had favor on Abel the second born but not Cain .
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The reason God found Abel's offering more excellent than Cain's was because Abel brought his offering through faith:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:6 tells us that without faith it is impossible to please him.

In Gen 4:7 God told Cain If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Even though God told Cain that he could rule over sin, Cain chose not to overcome.




garee said:
God had favor on the second born Issacs but not Ismael.
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In Gal 4:29 we find that Ismael was born after the flesh. Ismael was a result of Abraham attempting to "help" God bring about what God had promised Abraham in Gen 12.

And Rom 9:7 tells us Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Who is the "seed" God spoke of in Rom 9:7? [hint: Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ]. For some reason we like to think that Scripture is all about us when, in reality, it's all about the Lord Jesus Christ. And we will never understand the fullness of God's wonderful Word until we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 3:15-16).



garee said:
God had favor on Jacob the second born but not Esau .
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Agreed. But nowhere in Scripture do we find that "God hated Esau while he was still in the womb" as GraceAndTruth wrongly surmises.




 
G

garee

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#32
Mar 28, 2016
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#32
reneweddaybyday said:
The reason God found Abel's offering more excellent than Cain's was because Abel brought his offering through faith:

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Hebrews 11:6 tells us that without faith it is impossible to please him.

In Gen 4:7 God told Cain If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Even though God told Cain that he could rule over sin, Cain chose not to overcome.





In Gal 4:29 we find that Ismael was born after the flesh. Ismael was a result of Abraham attempting to "help" God bring about what God had promised Abraham in Gen 12.

And Rom 9:7 tells us Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Who is the "seed" God spoke of in Rom 9:7? [hint: Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ]. For some reason we like to think that Scripture is all about us when, in reality, it's all about the Lord Jesus Christ. And we will never understand the fullness of God's wonderful Word until we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 3:15-16).




Agreed. But nowhere in Scripture do we find that "God hated Esau while he was still in the womb" as GraceAndTruth wrongly surmises.
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Yes, the seed is spiritual, Christ.

Christ is first shown in Genesis 3:15 to represent the work of the gospel

I think womb is more of a principle. To hate is to not bless. All believers are blessed in respect to the second birth in the womb . The calling times can differ. And when looking at Hebrew 11 when mentioning men he moved by faith, the list goes from the greater to the lesser known. It would seem there was those he hid from the public in caves (Of whom the world was not worthy).I think it is another way of saying the first will be last and the last will be first. God is no respecter of persons.


They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. Hebrews 11:37-38
 
G

garee

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#33
Mar 28, 2016
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#33
LPT said:
I’m happy you feel that way, as for me I am not good I am just rags.
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Amen good defines God unseen as our Faithful Creator, he alone is good.

Out the goodness of His heart he informs us he will not forget the good works we have offered towards His name, a sign he is working in us.
 
L

LPT

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#34
#34
Matthew 11:26
Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#35
Dec 15, 2018
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#35
Just admit you were mistaken GraceandTruth. Sometimes we can read things that arent there. Even I do that sometimes and the when I read things in order I find out a mistaken or I missed something.

God hating Esau in the womb? I dont think so...and the Bible does not say or imply so. Youve conflated two scripture verses into one. Elder serving younger is just what God envisioned for Jacob and Esau.

I think God knew that having twins would be a way of creating two nations at the same time maybe for no other purpose than to show His glory. Jacon being younger God loved and ended up hating Esau, as Esau showed he didnt care for Gods birthright blessing, always given to the firstborn.

Of course this wouldnt have surprised God, but of you think of your own children...do you have any, do you just write any of that dont please you from before birth? Do you judge them before they even have a chance to draw breath?
 
G

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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#36
Lanolin said:
Just admit you were mistaken GraceandTruth. Sometimes we can read things that arent there. Even I do that sometimes and the when I read things in order I find out a mistaken or I missed something.

God hating Esau in the womb? I dont think so...and the Bible does not say or imply so. Youve conflated two scripture verses into one. Elder serving younger is just what God envisioned for Jacob and Esau.

I think God knew that having twins would be a way of creating two nations at the same time maybe for no other purpose than to show His glory. Jacon being younger God loved and ended up hating Esau, as Esau showed he didnt care for Gods birthright blessing, always given to the firstborn.

Of course this wouldnt have surprised God, but of you think of your own children...do you have any, do you just write any of that dont please you from before birth? Do you judge them before they even have a chance to draw breath?
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To hate is to not bless.

Jabcob's name was written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world as elected by God set aside to serve the good purposes thereof.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Roman 9:11-13
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#37
#37
GraceAndTruth said:
Malachi 1: 2-3
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Yep,

Talked about Israel and EDOM, nations NOT KIDS

Again contect would help you immensly

Mal 1:
I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”
4 Even though Edom has said,
“We have been impoverished,
But we will return and build the desolate places,”
Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“They may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness,
And the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever.
5 Your eyes shall see,
And you shall say,
‘The Lord is magnified beyond the border of Israel.’

He is not talking about a childs salvation here, he is talking about god loving israelm his beloved, more than Edom, who has been cast down because of their great sins.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#38
#38
garee said:
To hate is to not bless.

Jabcob's name was written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world as elected by God set aside to serve the good purposes thereof.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Roman 9:11-13
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You need to look at the old testament quotes to get context, as shown in this thread

Non of these passages in the OT says Jacob was saved and edom was condemned to hell before they were born.
 
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