Not By Works
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OK.
I'll try again because you're not listening....
This is the formula I was speaking about with another member:
If we have no works....it means we have no faith.
If we have no faith......It means we have no salvation.
Works demonstrate that we have faith.
That other member was saying that our works are SIGN OF OUR FAITH.
I agree.
So...
If we have no works, it shows we have no faith.
If we have no works, it means we have no faith.
THEN
I'm sure everyone on this thread believes that if we have no faith it means we have no salvation.
So...
If we have no faith....It means we have no salvation.
So, here we go again and read it well this time...
If we have no works.......it means we have no faith.
If we have no faith..........it means we have no salvation.
I think you just don't ever want to agree with me.
If you take the time to read it correctly, you'll see that even YOU have to say it's right.
I'll try again because you're not listening....
This is the formula I was speaking about with another member:
If we have no works....it means we have no faith.
If we have no faith......It means we have no salvation.
Works demonstrate that we have faith.
That other member was saying that our works are SIGN OF OUR FAITH.
I agree.
So...
If we have no works, it shows we have no faith.
If we have no works, it means we have no faith.
THEN
I'm sure everyone on this thread believes that if we have no faith it means we have no salvation.
So...
If we have no faith....It means we have no salvation.
So, here we go again and read it well this time...
If we have no works.......it means we have no faith.
If we have no faith..........it means we have no salvation.
I think you just don't ever want to agree with me.
If you take the time to read it correctly, you'll see that even YOU have to say it's right.
No, I will never agree Fran. because your whole premise of James is incorrect and your whole premise of a salvation maintained by us that can be forfeit is false.....
Faith that saves stands alone, is begun, finished and completed by Christ and we have danced this dance before.....any work, all works and every flavor of work that is biblical is the result of something ALREADY possessed.
TREES take years of growth before they produce 1 piece of fruit.....like for example an oak tree....20 to 25 years before it bears and yet it is an oak tree LONG BEFORE IT PRODUCES.....some years they produce, some years they do not produce and the older they get the MORE THEY produce yet from sprouting to death they are an oak tree....
ALSO.....a saved man may produce, may trip and fall into sin and quit producing yet remained saved.....
No Fran.....your whole premise is not correct and James does not teach a works faith blend salvation....
The contrast is between A MERE BELIEF IN GOD and ACTUAL SAVING FAITH.....the JEWS TO THIS DAY still have the same problem....a mere belief IN GOD but no SAVING FAITH.....
and lastly....
All who are genuinely saved have the 1 (one) work required.....the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER which is to BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE SENT.
I will never agree with you as long as you
A. Peddle a salvation that is maintained by us
B. Peddle a salvation that can be lost
C. Peddle a faith/works blend salvation
Faith that saves stands alone, is begun, finished and completed by Christ and we have danced this dance before.....any work, all works and every flavor of work that is biblical is the result of something ALREADY possessed.
TREES take years of growth before they produce 1 piece of fruit.....like for example an oak tree....20 to 25 years before it bears and yet it is an oak tree LONG BEFORE IT PRODUCES.....some years they produce, some years they do not produce and the older they get the MORE THEY produce yet from sprouting to death they are an oak tree....
ALSO.....a saved man may produce, may trip and fall into sin and quit producing yet remained saved.....
No Fran.....your whole premise is not correct and James does not teach a works faith blend salvation....
The contrast is between A MERE BELIEF IN GOD and ACTUAL SAVING FAITH.....the JEWS TO THIS DAY still have the same problem....a mere belief IN GOD but no SAVING FAITH.....
and lastly....
All who are genuinely saved have the 1 (one) work required.....the work of the HEAVENLY FATHER which is to BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE SENT.
I will never agree with you as long as you
A. Peddle a salvation that is maintained by us
B. Peddle a salvation that can be lost
C. Peddle a faith/works blend salvation
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So you do not SIN in your opinion? Or almost Never Sin?
What If I can prove to you that YOU sin almost EVERYDAY?
I believe our salvation IS in danger. YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.
<><.🕇.><>
NOW you have MISINTERPRETED several verses, and I will PROVE IT TO YOU.
So you STILL think you are completely obedient to GOD?
Then let me show you how Easily that BUBBLE of PRIDE can be BURST.
1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king [President Trump].
Speeding, even accidentally - YOU SIN!
Littering, even a candy bar wrapper or 33.8% of LITTER is cigarette butts - YOU SIN!
Parking Violation - YOU SIN
Failure to pick up dog poop - YOU SIN!
LEASHING YOUR DOG is the LAW in most public places - YOU SIN!
Jay Walking is an ordinance is some Cities - YOU SIN!
Shall I go on? I am sure there are LOTS of City, County, and State Ordinances, that GOD EXPECTS YOU TO OBEY.
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I know you won't Dcon.
This is for those reading along who might be new Christians.
I think it's important for them to know that God wants us to obey Him and that the bible teaches loss of salvation. I've posted so much scripture that I'm getting tired of this.
You do, however, go agains scripture in your second paragraph.
You say that faith that saves stands alone.
James says that a faith that stands alone does NOT save.
Who's right? You or James?
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
You see D, faith, if it has no works, is dead because it is alone. (without works)
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is the bible speaking...not me.
James was an Apostle of Jesus and was with Him for years.
I think HE knows more about faith and what saves than we do....
This is for those reading along who might be new Christians.
I think it's important for them to know that God wants us to obey Him and that the bible teaches loss of salvation. I've posted so much scripture that I'm getting tired of this.
You do, however, go agains scripture in your second paragraph.
You say that faith that saves stands alone.
James says that a faith that stands alone does NOT save.
Who's right? You or James?
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
You see D, faith, if it has no works, is dead because it is alone. (without works)
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is the bible speaking...not me.
James was an Apostle of Jesus and was with Him for years.
I think HE knows more about faith and what saves than we do....
So you do not SIN in your opinion? Or almost Never Sin?
What If I can prove to you that YOU sin almost EVERYDAY?
I believe our salvation IS in danger. YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.
<><.🕇.><>
NOW you have MISINTERPRETED several verses, and I will PROVE IT TO YOU.
So you STILL think you are completely obedient to GOD?
Then let me show you how Easily that BUBBLE of PRIDE can be BURST.
1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king [President Trump].
View attachment 192007
Speeding, even accidentally - YOU SIN!
Littering, even a candy bar wrapper or 33.8% of LITTER is cigarette butts - YOU SIN!
Parking Violation - YOU SIN
View attachment 192008
Failure to pick up dog poop - YOU SIN!
View attachment 192009
LEASHING YOUR DOG is the LAW in most public places - YOU SIN!
View attachment 192010
Jay Walking is an ordinance is some Cities - YOU SIN!
Shall I go on? I am sure there are LOTS of City, County, and State Ordinances, that GOD EXPECTS YOU TO OBEY.
What If I can prove to you that YOU sin almost EVERYDAY?
I believe our salvation IS in danger. YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.
<><.🕇.><>
NOW you have MISINTERPRETED several verses, and I will PROVE IT TO YOU.
So you STILL think you are completely obedient to GOD?
Then let me show you how Easily that BUBBLE of PRIDE can be BURST.
1 Peter 2:13-17 (NKJV)
13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme,
14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men--
16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.
17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king [President Trump].
View attachment 192007
Speeding, even accidentally - YOU SIN!
Littering, even a candy bar wrapper or 33.8% of LITTER is cigarette butts - YOU SIN!
Parking Violation - YOU SIN
View attachment 192008
Failure to pick up dog poop - YOU SIN!
View attachment 192009
LEASHING YOUR DOG is the LAW in most public places - YOU SIN!
View attachment 192010
Jay Walking is an ordinance is some Cities - YOU SIN!
Shall I go on? I am sure there are LOTS of City, County, and State Ordinances, that GOD EXPECTS YOU TO OBEY.
You misunderstand me too much.
I think I shouldn't reply to your posts....
And again you miss the mark and twist James into something it does not say.....
Mere belief in God contrasted against saving faith.....
Not faith plus works = salvation
You are adding to faith for salvation = false gospel
Therefore we conclude a man IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE WORKS/DEEDS of the law
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
You are embellishing the above by taking James beyond the context of what is actually being addressed!
Faith plus works to finish salvation = false gospel of a different kind with no POWER TO SAVE, All who peddle it are double cursed and those who believe it are fools and bewitched!
Mere belief in God contrasted against saving faith.....
Not faith plus works = salvation
You are adding to faith for salvation = false gospel
Therefore we conclude a man IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE WORKS/DEEDS of the law
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe
You are embellishing the above by taking James beyond the context of what is actually being addressed!
Faith plus works to finish salvation = false gospel of a different kind with no POWER TO SAVE, All who peddle it are double cursed and those who believe it are fools and bewitched!
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How about the Institutes?
Have YOU read them carefully?
Do you enjoy serving such a mean-spirited God?
It's not that those such as myself can not or do not want to understand or accept...
It's that you choose to change the nature of God.
I believe every wrong doctrine will be accepted by God.
BUT, I don't know how happy He'll be with those who made Him out to be a monster who chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell BASED ON NOTHING but His whim.
And how little do you think God is that He should worry that WE take any credit for our salvation?
As if WE, little humans that we are, could take any GLORY AWAY from Him,,,the Almightly God, who is
ALL LOVE
ALL MERCY
ALL JUST
And someone named Calvin, and those who agreed with him, changed Him to be so mean that He makes some THINK they're saved only to pull the rug out from under them in the end.
And He makes some THINK they have free will by forcing them to desire what HE desires.
Please don't tell me I can't accept your theology because YOU are so much greater than I am because God chose YOU, one of the few lucky ones....and YOU can accept this horrible God and so you think that make you better than anyone here?
No. It makes you worse.
Have YOU read them carefully?
Do you enjoy serving such a mean-spirited God?
It's not that those such as myself can not or do not want to understand or accept...
It's that you choose to change the nature of God.
I believe every wrong doctrine will be accepted by God.
BUT, I don't know how happy He'll be with those who made Him out to be a monster who chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell BASED ON NOTHING but His whim.
And how little do you think God is that He should worry that WE take any credit for our salvation?
As if WE, little humans that we are, could take any GLORY AWAY from Him,,,the Almightly God, who is
ALL LOVE
ALL MERCY
ALL JUST
And someone named Calvin, and those who agreed with him, changed Him to be so mean that He makes some THINK they're saved only to pull the rug out from under them in the end.
And He makes some THINK they have free will by forcing them to desire what HE desires.
Please don't tell me I can't accept your theology because YOU are so much greater than I am because God chose YOU, one of the few lucky ones....and YOU can accept this horrible God and so you think that make you better than anyone here?
No. It makes you worse.
J
Lesson 6:
Canon Of Sacred Scripture
1. How many books does the entire Bible contain?
Seventy-two or seventy-four, depending on the way they are calculated
2. How do we know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books?
We know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books because the number is fixed by the "Canon of the Scriptures."
3. What is meant by the word "Canon"?
"Canon" is a Greek word that means a standard or rule.
4. What is meant by the "Canon of Scriptures"?
Originally, the Canon of Scriptures meant the qualifications required of a book before admittance into the number of recognized inspired writings; now it means the very collection of these books recognized as inspired.
5. Who decides which books belong to the Bible and which do not?
The Catholic Church decides.
6. By what authority does the Catholic Church make this decision?
By that of Christ, Who has made her the infallible teacher of faith and morals by both the oral and the written word.
7. What special mark was required of a book before its admittance into the collection known as the Bible?
The special mark required was clear proof of its inspiration.
8. By whom was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?
Pope Damasus, at the Roman Council of 382 A.D.
9. By what name are those books, whose authenticity was never questioned, known?
They are known as the Proto-Canonical Books.
10. Why are they so called?
They are so called because from the beginning they were recognized as Scriptural; the Greek prefix "proto" has the signification "from the first" or "originally," hence the use of the term "proto-canonical" to describe those books.
11. By what name are the disputed books known?
They are known as the Deutero-Canonical Books.
12. Why are they so called?
They are so called because their recognition as Scriptural came "afterwards"; the Greek word "Deutero" used as a prefix has the signification of "second" or "later."
13. Name the Deutero-Canonical Books.
Tobias, Wisdom, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Machabees (I & II), Judith, Esther (Ch X. v. 4 to end), Daniel (Ch. III, vs. 52-93). The Protestants call them "Apocryphal" Books.
14. Why did the Hebrews not admit these books as part of the Bible?
As a whole, the Hebrews stopped admitting these books after the second Century A.D., because they were written in languages other than Hebrew, or were of uncertain authorship.
15. Did the Hebrews ever formally rejected these books?
On the contrary, even if they did not accept these books as part of the Bible, they were always held in the greatest reverence by the Hebrews.
16. Under what guidance does the Church declare which books are canonical and which are not?
Under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
17. How do we know that she has this guidance?
We know that she has this guidance because Christ promised assistance to His Church until the end of times [Matthew 28:20].
18. Has the Church made use of human means in drawing up the Canon of Scriptures?
Yes; she investigated carefully whether the doctrine taught in the book was in harmony with Tradition and whether the book was of apostolic origin.
Canon Of Sacred Scripture
1. How many books does the entire Bible contain?
Seventy-two or seventy-four, depending on the way they are calculated
2. How do we know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books?
We know with certainty that the Bible contains only these books because the number is fixed by the "Canon of the Scriptures."
3. What is meant by the word "Canon"?
"Canon" is a Greek word that means a standard or rule.
4. What is meant by the "Canon of Scriptures"?
Originally, the Canon of Scriptures meant the qualifications required of a book before admittance into the number of recognized inspired writings; now it means the very collection of these books recognized as inspired.
5. Who decides which books belong to the Bible and which do not?
The Catholic Church decides.
6. By what authority does the Catholic Church make this decision?
By that of Christ, Who has made her the infallible teacher of faith and morals by both the oral and the written word.
7. What special mark was required of a book before its admittance into the collection known as the Bible?
The special mark required was clear proof of its inspiration.
8. By whom was the first list of the books of the Bible drawn up?
Pope Damasus, at the Roman Council of 382 A.D.
9. By what name are those books, whose authenticity was never questioned, known?
They are known as the Proto-Canonical Books.
10. Why are they so called?
They are so called because from the beginning they were recognized as Scriptural; the Greek prefix "proto" has the signification "from the first" or "originally," hence the use of the term "proto-canonical" to describe those books.
11. By what name are the disputed books known?
They are known as the Deutero-Canonical Books.
12. Why are they so called?
They are so called because their recognition as Scriptural came "afterwards"; the Greek word "Deutero" used as a prefix has the signification of "second" or "later."
13. Name the Deutero-Canonical Books.
Tobias, Wisdom, Baruch, Ecclesiasticus, Machabees (I & II), Judith, Esther (Ch X. v. 4 to end), Daniel (Ch. III, vs. 52-93). The Protestants call them "Apocryphal" Books.
14. Why did the Hebrews not admit these books as part of the Bible?
As a whole, the Hebrews stopped admitting these books after the second Century A.D., because they were written in languages other than Hebrew, or were of uncertain authorship.
15. Did the Hebrews ever formally rejected these books?
On the contrary, even if they did not accept these books as part of the Bible, they were always held in the greatest reverence by the Hebrews.
16. Under what guidance does the Church declare which books are canonical and which are not?
Under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
17. How do we know that she has this guidance?
We know that she has this guidance because Christ promised assistance to His Church until the end of times [Matthew 28:20].
18. Has the Church made use of human means in drawing up the Canon of Scriptures?
Yes; she investigated carefully whether the doctrine taught in the book was in harmony with Tradition and whether the book was of apostolic origin.
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You keep telling me I'm following a false gospel.
Like what was preached by the gnostics of that time.
If I'm following a false gospel...am I still saved?
I'm not following a false gospel...
you just don't agree with me.
I hate doing this,,,but here we go:
“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience
“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)
“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God …
so that none of you will be deceived by sin
and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).
“Do you not know that
if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life --- Slaves of sin > eternal death
“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)
“Afterward they will receive the crown of life
that God has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
The “crown of life” means eternal life.
“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)
“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)
“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)
The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)
“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)
Question:
Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?
“If you love Me, obey My commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them are
the ones who love Me … All who love Me will do what I say.
Anyone who doesn’t love Me will not obey Me.” (John 14:21-24)
“When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love” (John 15:10)
“You are My friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
“We can be sure we know Him, if we obey His commandments” (1 John 2:3)
“He who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him” (1 John 3:24)
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (1 John 3:24)
“Loving God means keeping His commandments” (1 John 5:3)
“Love means doing what God has commanded us” (2 John 6)
Even though OT people had none of our advantages, God said He would show
mercy “to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Exodus 20:6)
Like what was preached by the gnostics of that time.
If I'm following a false gospel...am I still saved?
I'm not following a false gospel...
you just don't agree with me.
I hate doing this,,,but here we go:
“… only we who believe can enter His rest … but those who first heard this good news
failed to enter because they disobeyed God.” (Hebrews 4:3, 7)
Disobedience proves Unbelief --- Unbelief causes Disobedience
“And to whom was God speaking when he took an oath that they would never enter His rest?
Wasn’t it the people who disobeyed him? So we see that because of their unbelief
they were not able to enter his rest … so we ought to tremble with fear that some of
you might fail to experience it … IF we disobey God … we will fall.” (Hebrews 3:18 - 4:11)
“… make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving,
turning you away from the living God …
so that none of you will be deceived by sin
and hardened against God.” (Hebrews 3:12)
If we are deceived by sin (especially habitual sin), this can result in
departing from God with “an evil heart of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:12, NKJV).
“Do you not know that
if you present yourselves to anyone as as obedient slaves,
you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
either (slaves) of sin which leads to (eternal) death,
OR (slaves) of obedience leading too righteousness?” (Romans 6:16)
Slaves of obedience > eternal life --- Slaves of sin > eternal death
“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God.
But there is no (eternal) life in those who do not keep His commandments.”
(from “The Shepherd of Hermas”, quoted as Scripture by such early Christian leaders
as Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen. It was probably the most popular book
in the Christian church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th centuries a.d.)
“Afterward they will receive the crown of life
that God has promised to those who love Him.” (James 1:12)
The “crown of life” means eternal life.
“You are truly my disciples, if you remain faithful to my teachings
… anyone who obeys my teachings will never die!” (John 8:31, 51)
“Therefore, go and make disciples … Teach these new disciples to
obey all the commands I have given you.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
“We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.” (2 Cor. 10:5)
“To all who are victorious (overcomers) who obey Me to the very end,
to them I will give authority over all the nations.” (Revelation 2:26)
The church: “all who keep God’s commandments and
maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Revelation 12:17)
“So, you must live as God’s obedient children.” (1 Peter 1:14)
Question:
Must one love Jesus (thus obey His commandments) to get to heaven?
“If you love Me, obey My commandments.” (John 14:15)
“Those who accept My commandments and obey them are
the ones who love Me … All who love Me will do what I say.
Anyone who doesn’t love Me will not obey Me.” (John 14:21-24)
“When you obey My commandments, you remain in My love” (John 15:10)
“You are My friends, if you do what I command.” (John 15:14)
“We can be sure we know Him, if we obey His commandments” (1 John 2:3)
“He who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him” (1 John 3:24)
“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (1 John 3:24)
“Loving God means keeping His commandments” (1 John 5:3)
“Love means doing what God has commanded us” (2 John 6)
Even though OT people had none of our advantages, God said He would show
mercy “to those who love Me and keep My commandments” (Exodus 20:6)
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