Perspective On The Law/Grace
- Thread starter Epiales
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Even excluding the "LAW"... Why so against someone taking a day for Yeshua? Let's completely remove a law for anyone in the Word. What's the issue? Someone does it b/c they want to?
Do you celebrate birthdays? Anniversaries? Christmas? Or ANY other day? If so, then you're evil and wrong and I need to tell you how awful you are. Right?
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
So by biblical standards, anyone that wants to keep a Sabbath day is NOT in transgression, since there is no law, if they are doing so our of love and reverence to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and not for their salvation. And the law bringing wrath? That's correct.... in two ways.
1. You cannot follow the law 100 percent because if you fail in one, you fail in all, and it's only through Christ that one will EVER be justified and saved; apart from the law.
2. If you try and please God by following the law, you will fail EVERY time, thus, condeming yourselves; as u will never meet God's standard in keeping the law.
Did God give you the right to tell people if they keep a Sabbath that they are sinning? In transgression? When God simply tells us that there is nothing wrong with it.
And I"m not confused... You are spot on about something finally...
So don't judge someone that wishes to do something out of love... since you "totally understand"
Do you celebrate birthdays? Anniversaries? Christmas? Or ANY other day? If so, then you're evil and wrong and I need to tell you how awful you are. Right?
Rom 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
So by biblical standards, anyone that wants to keep a Sabbath day is NOT in transgression, since there is no law, if they are doing so our of love and reverence to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and not for their salvation. And the law bringing wrath? That's correct.... in two ways.
1. You cannot follow the law 100 percent because if you fail in one, you fail in all, and it's only through Christ that one will EVER be justified and saved; apart from the law.
2. If you try and please God by following the law, you will fail EVERY time, thus, condeming yourselves; as u will never meet God's standard in keeping the law.
Did God give you the right to tell people if they keep a Sabbath that they are sinning? In transgression? When God simply tells us that there is nothing wrong with it.
And I"m not confused... You are spot on about something finally...
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setting apart time to worship the Lord. I totally understand that a person does that out of love.-
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Where do you find that not eating pork, for example, is an expression of love towards God? Are these not carnal commandments (as it says in Hebrews), only meant until the time of reformation? There is now a new covenant, with a new priesthood, and as a result with a changing in law (Hebrews 7:12). I don't see how observance of such things is an act of worship, an act of love, or anything of the sort.
I understand setting a day aside, or fasting and prayer (fellowship with God) and can find unity with you in that regard, but the legalism, and by necessity condemnation that results, I cannot define as liberating. So many people do not truly grasp the reconciliation that Christ purchased for us. It is wonderful that a person wishes to please God, and God does see the heart, but how mistaken they are to think it is through observance to carnal commandments. To think, in Acts, the disciples even say that they gave no such commandment.
We have liberty to do that which is right, not an encouragement to do that which is wrong or incorrect. While His grace is sufficient, His yoke is easy and burden light. Someone may choose to do something in honor of God, and again God sees the heart, but it does mean that the action itself really is an act of love, more so the intent.
One might be better off seeking the Lord's will for their life to please God instead of submitting themselves to rules and regulations.
I understand setting a day aside, or fasting and prayer (fellowship with God) and can find unity with you in that regard, but the legalism, and by necessity condemnation that results, I cannot define as liberating. So many people do not truly grasp the reconciliation that Christ purchased for us. It is wonderful that a person wishes to please God, and God does see the heart, but how mistaken they are to think it is through observance to carnal commandments. To think, in Acts, the disciples even say that they gave no such commandment.
We have liberty to do that which is right, not an encouragement to do that which is wrong or incorrect. While His grace is sufficient, His yoke is easy and burden light. Someone may choose to do something in honor of God, and again God sees the heart, but it does mean that the action itself really is an act of love, more so the intent.
One might be better off seeking the Lord's will for their life to please God instead of submitting themselves to rules and regulations.
Nowhere does it tell us that it's an expression of love to not eat pork... I will say this though... pork isn't really good for the body anyway. There are reasons for this. I love pork and I eat it all the time. Many of the commands in the Torah are for our personal benefit, and if anyone wishes to follow them, there should be no issue, as long as they are not cramming it down our throats and trying to belittle us for doing the opposite.
Now the sabbath, to me is different! That is a time that one wishes to set apart for honor and love of Yeshua. Has nothing to do with eating pork or anything else. Again, what is so wrong with taking one day out of the week to devote it to the Lord. Busy with work, kids, wife, family, and friends, and take a day for God... There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if anyone says otherwise, they are being silly for thinking it's wrong to serve God in that capacity. It's like saying, I don't have to give any time with my wife because my wife knows I love her. I don't have to do anything for her because she knows that I love her. No, your 'actions' prove to her that you love her.
Again, the sabbath isn't something that will save anyone or make anyone better than anyone else by following it, but it is an expression of love to the one whom we serve; Yahweh, the God of this universe, and Christ His Son.
As far as the action not being an act of love, I completely disagree. Don't show or pay any attention to your wife and see how that works. The sabbath is not a rule or regulation to someone that wishes to do keep it. Is it for many? Yup! They are wrong if they keep it for that reason, but for someone who wishes to honor God on the Sabbath, it IS an act of love; not a rule, regulation, or obligation.
Now the sabbath, to me is different! That is a time that one wishes to set apart for honor and love of Yeshua. Has nothing to do with eating pork or anything else. Again, what is so wrong with taking one day out of the week to devote it to the Lord. Busy with work, kids, wife, family, and friends, and take a day for God... There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if anyone says otherwise, they are being silly for thinking it's wrong to serve God in that capacity. It's like saying, I don't have to give any time with my wife because my wife knows I love her. I don't have to do anything for her because she knows that I love her. No, your 'actions' prove to her that you love her.
Again, the sabbath isn't something that will save anyone or make anyone better than anyone else by following it, but it is an expression of love to the one whom we serve; Yahweh, the God of this universe, and Christ His Son.
As far as the action not being an act of love, I completely disagree. Don't show or pay any attention to your wife and see how that works. The sabbath is not a rule or regulation to someone that wishes to do keep it. Is it for many? Yup! They are wrong if they keep it for that reason, but for someone who wishes to honor God on the Sabbath, it IS an act of love; not a rule, regulation, or obligation.
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Amen! It boils down to a heart issue in the end. Are we following the Sabbath to please Him? To make ourselves better than others? To make us think God will love us more? If any of them, then the heart is not in the right place. You follow it b/c you 'want to' to do in a way to show your love towards Him, and likewise, because of Yeshua's death, burial, and resurrection, those that choose to not follow it, but put their rest in Him daily and worship Him by other means; do all you do for His glory. This is a personal lifestyle and should not in any aspect be judged by another person, as we have no biblical standard to tell someone else how to serve and worship Him. We each worship our Abba in many different way, and not always the same method.
Thank you for your participation! May God truly bless you and those whom you love.
Thank you for your participation! May God truly bless you and those whom you love.
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Hey there...
I have heard people come in the chat and tell people if they don't follow the Sabbath then they are in violation of God's will and will not enter into the Kingdom, as they are breaking an eternal law of God. It's sad, but it does happen more than often. We are told we are all deceived and led by false teachers and are denying Christ if we fail to keep His commandment. Sigh!!!!!
I have heard people come in the chat and tell people if they don't follow the Sabbath then they are in violation of God's will and will not enter into the Kingdom, as they are breaking an eternal law of God. It's sad, but it does happen more than often. We are told we are all deceived and led by false teachers and are denying Christ if we fail to keep His commandment. Sigh!!!!!
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Hello Epiales. Wow, this is wonderful. I respect the enthusiasm a lot. Let me help you out:
- First, you are right, the law is not done anyway with and love for G-d comes 1st. Once we have an uncircumcised heart, only then can we serve G-d
- Second only Jews are OBLIGATED to keep Shabbat and all the LAWS permitted on Shabbat. Gentiles are more than welcome to honor Shabbat, but technically, they are obligated to keep it nor fulfill it
- 3rd, great in "keeping" Shabbat, but tell me, what does it mean to keep Shabbat? If you understand the Holy Language of Hebrew and the text of the Torah, you will easily find, that there are MANY laws within Shabbat that need to be kept in order to KEEP Shabbat.
- First, you are right, the law is not done anyway with and love for G-d comes 1st. Once we have an uncircumcised heart, only then can we serve G-d
- Second only Jews are OBLIGATED to keep Shabbat and all the LAWS permitted on Shabbat. Gentiles are more than welcome to honor Shabbat, but technically, they are obligated to keep it nor fulfill it
- 3rd, great in "keeping" Shabbat, but tell me, what does it mean to keep Shabbat? If you understand the Holy Language of Hebrew and the text of the Torah, you will easily find, that there are MANY laws within Shabbat that need to be kept in order to KEEP Shabbat.
I agree.. the original שבת has many different areas; I believe 39? It would take much preparation and devotion to do so anyway. I would be in awe of someone that kept it 100 percent precisely. Not in awe of boasting of what they do, but their dedication in serving the Lord b/c of their love for Him. I am learning the Hebrew language currently, and doing many studies pertaining to Jewish tradition, Torah, Paul, and many other things. I personally do not keep the שבת, and neither do I condemn a person that wishes to keep it based on their love for Him. The Torah must not be intertwined with grace, but that doesn't mean that one cannot follow it to the best of their ability today if they choose to honor Yahweh in that manner.
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Ah very good! 
Yes there is a set of main "melachot" which is not exactly forbidden work but it is. These 39 laws have derived from the hint given in Leviticus 19:30 in relation to building the Mishkan/Temple. To find out more, you can probably look at Chabad.Org if interested. However, there are laws outside these 39 laws such as "lighting" a fire, baking challah, lighting shabbos candles, havdalah and not carrying. Extra stringencies come to even not even thinking negative thoughts on Shabbos. When it comes to the basics of written and oral law, many Orthodox Jews hold these laws "perfectly". Now the "extra stringencies" in relationship to a Gentile may seem like an overwhelming burden, placed on top of burden and that is why Paul says, DO NOT EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT, but as for a Jew, he is obligated to keep the Shabbat and "extra" is not necessary but if one desires to with a "PURE" intention, it is clearly permitted because he is expressing his absolute for G-d, just like one may struggle to hold the door open on a busy workday, these may be "similar" acts in relation to where one is spiritually. I hope this helps.
As for the "name" you gave G-d, I would strongly recommend that you refrain from using such a term for G-d's 4 letter tetragrammaton has NO vowels and to attempt to "give" G-d a name, is highly disrespectful. Obviously forgive is one did not know, but you wouldn't come to a King and make up a name for him if you came into his presence? How much more should we not assume to give a name or title to the King of Kings? Even more so, His name is so precious, the usage of His name should be used only in prayer and in Torah study. I know many "christian" and even "messianics" give such a title, but this is not a good witness to the Jewish people.
Just some advice, please take it with insight. I only mean to say it for the better. All the best brother! Don't get flustered with certain Christians, for if G-d revealed to you truth, keep seeking more and you will realize how "isolated" you will be, however your basis of truth stems from G-d and the Torah if you ever need to check if you are on the right path!
G-d Bless You!
Yes there is a set of main "melachot" which is not exactly forbidden work but it is. These 39 laws have derived from the hint given in Leviticus 19:30 in relation to building the Mishkan/Temple. To find out more, you can probably look at Chabad.Org if interested. However, there are laws outside these 39 laws such as "lighting" a fire, baking challah, lighting shabbos candles, havdalah and not carrying. Extra stringencies come to even not even thinking negative thoughts on Shabbos. When it comes to the basics of written and oral law, many Orthodox Jews hold these laws "perfectly". Now the "extra stringencies" in relationship to a Gentile may seem like an overwhelming burden, placed on top of burden and that is why Paul says, DO NOT EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT, but as for a Jew, he is obligated to keep the Shabbat and "extra" is not necessary but if one desires to with a "PURE" intention, it is clearly permitted because he is expressing his absolute for G-d, just like one may struggle to hold the door open on a busy workday, these may be "similar" acts in relation to where one is spiritually. I hope this helps.As for the "name" you gave G-d, I would strongly recommend that you refrain from using such a term for G-d's 4 letter tetragrammaton has NO vowels and to attempt to "give" G-d a name, is highly disrespectful. Obviously forgive is one did not know, but you wouldn't come to a King and make up a name for him if you came into his presence? How much more should we not assume to give a name or title to the King of Kings? Even more so, His name is so precious, the usage of His name should be used only in prayer and in Torah study. I know many "christian" and even "messianics" give such a title, but this is not a good witness to the Jewish people.
Just some advice, please take it with insight. I only mean to say it for the better. All the best brother! Don't get flustered with certain Christians, for if G-d revealed to you truth, keep seeking more and you will realize how "isolated" you will be, however your basis of truth stems from G-d and the Torah if you ever need to check if you are on the right path!
G-d Bless You!
Oh! Many people say because I wish to obey the remaining laws that should be abeyed according to the teaching of Yeshua, I am "under the law," Yeshua does not.
I believe people have made up their own set of laws, and this is being "under the law," but in their own manner.
God bless people with understanding and His Love, not that love that comes out of one side of the mouth.
I believe people have made up their own set of laws, and this is being "under the law," but in their own manner.
God bless people with understanding and His Love, not that love that comes out of one side of the mouth.
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Good question. Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel under the old covenant that is not binding on Christians in the New Testament.
*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.
If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).
These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).
If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?
If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.
Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.
Now I don't condemn people for setting out in some fashion to keep the Sabbath. What I have a major problem with is people who condemn others for not keeping the Sabbath in violation of Colossians 2:16-17. Some Sabbatarians (such as SDA's) have gone so far as to teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Such a ludicrous teaching!
http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Even when Sabbatarians set out to worship on the Sabbath, are they truly "keeping the Sabbath?" To "keep the Sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the Old Covenant would involve compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.
If Sabbath day observances are still required, so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).
These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1).
If the seventh day Sabbath is still in affect, then why do not the Sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can a person keep a certain law when he keeps only part of it?
If the Sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36, anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people.
Who is going to enforce that? The Jewish synagogue? The Seventh day Adventist church? The Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no Sabbatarian can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.
Now I don't condemn people for setting out in some fashion to keep the Sabbath. What I have a major problem with is people who condemn others for not keeping the Sabbath in violation of Colossians 2:16-17. Some Sabbatarians (such as SDA's) have gone so far as to teach that the near the end of time the "mark of the best" of Revelation 14 will be placed upon those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Such a ludicrous teaching!
http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml
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Yes I have, and I have never seen it.
I have seen people say that those who think obedience to the sabbath is REQUIRED to be saved may not be saved.. Because they are trying to be saved by law.. But I have not seen anyone say outright, if you obey thesabaath your doomed to hell. Period.
However, I have seen MANY a peaople condemn people to hell because they do not obey the sabbath.
I have seen people say that those who think obedience to the sabbath is REQUIRED to be saved may not be saved.. Because they are trying to be saved by law.. But I have not seen anyone say outright, if you obey thesabaath your doomed to hell. Period.
However, I have seen MANY a peaople condemn people to hell because they do not obey the sabbath.
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One such person who was previously a member of CC and happened to be SDA taught such nonsense and had a link at the bottom of all his posts to a website called, "The BeastsMark is coming!" which promoted the ludicrous idea that those who worship God on Sunday instead of Saturday will receive the mark of the beast and be condemned.
He perverted the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" as demonstrated from a statement made by him in blue below and I quote:
"There is another Gospel out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ."
He perverted the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" as demonstrated from a statement made by him in blue below and I quote:
"There is another Gospel out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. The counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ."
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Is this an issue of what day to worship on? Because Christians shouldn't really care what day a person worships or goes to church. For most people its sunday.
But for a Christian to say that he keeps the sabbath out of love for Christ is completely silly.
I'm not sure why you keep comparing it to birthdays and anniversaries. Birthdays and anniversaries aren't commanded by God and written on stone. The Lord Jesus doesn't need to deliver anyone from birthdays or anniversaries (probably).
So your issue doesn't seem to be how much you want to work at the law but rather on which day you want to go to church. I have no idea why you would say you were keeping the sabbath just because you choose a different day to go to church on. Especially if you know that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us Rest from our work at the law and delivers us from that curse.
And now, because you go to church on a different day than Christians, and you call it the Sabbath, and you say you do it out of love for Christ, then what happens to the Christians who don't go to church on the day you do?
Do they not love Christ?
Shouldn't the action of love be easy for EVERYONE to detect?
There go the people who love Christ going to church on the sabbath. Its just too bad most other Christians don't love Christ like you do.
The only problem with the above scenario is that working at the law IS NOT love of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ gives us REST from our work at the law.
Would you sacrifice animals to show your love of Christ??? Its the same thing as this sabbath situation. It makes NO sense.
Theres no more need of sacrificing animals BECAUSE of Christ.
Theres no more need of working at the shadow of the law BECAUSE of Christ. Such as sabbaths, new moons, and festivals.
But for a Christian to say that he keeps the sabbath out of love for Christ is completely silly.
I'm not sure why you keep comparing it to birthdays and anniversaries. Birthdays and anniversaries aren't commanded by God and written on stone. The Lord Jesus doesn't need to deliver anyone from birthdays or anniversaries (probably).
So your issue doesn't seem to be how much you want to work at the law but rather on which day you want to go to church. I have no idea why you would say you were keeping the sabbath just because you choose a different day to go to church on. Especially if you know that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us Rest from our work at the law and delivers us from that curse.
And now, because you go to church on a different day than Christians, and you call it the Sabbath, and you say you do it out of love for Christ, then what happens to the Christians who don't go to church on the day you do?
Do they not love Christ?
Shouldn't the action of love be easy for EVERYONE to detect?
There go the people who love Christ going to church on the sabbath. Its just too bad most other Christians don't love Christ like you do.
The only problem with the above scenario is that working at the law IS NOT love of Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ gives us REST from our work at the law.
Would you sacrifice animals to show your love of Christ??? Its the same thing as this sabbath situation. It makes NO sense.
Theres no more need of sacrificing animals BECAUSE of Christ.
Theres no more need of working at the shadow of the law BECAUSE of Christ. Such as sabbaths, new moons, and festivals.
This is silly! To say this about anyone who wants to love God in any fashion is contradictory to scripture. We love God with ALL our hearts, and if one wants to love God with all their heart by keeping the Sabbath, then that is their right, and decision, and nobody should tell them they are 'silly' because they want to.
What part of this do we not understand about this?
People need to realize that they make their OWN LAWS up in their minds that say...
"THOU SHALT NOT KEEP A SABBATH DAY"
Sorry, but if I wanted to do so, I would go with my heart, not with these man made laws of there being no law.
Don't want to work, make food, turn a light switch on, put wood in the stove, because I wish to spend this day devoted to God; reading, studying, praying, worshiping, etc...
Shame on you for serving God. You are in violation if you serve God on a sabbath. You are no longer under grace because you are serving your God.
See how 'silly' that sounds?
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Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:People need to realize that they make their OWN LAWS up in their minds that say...
"THOU SHALT NOT KEEP A SABBATH DAY"
Sorry, but if I wanted to do so, I would go with my heart, not with these man made laws of there being no law.
Don't want to work, make food, turn a light switch on, put wood in the stove, because I wish to spend this day devoted to God; reading, studying, praying, worshiping, etc...
Shame on you for serving God. You are in violation if you serve God on a sabbath. You are no longer under grace because you are serving your God.
See how 'silly' that sounds?