Not By Works

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posthuman

posthuman

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#78,321
Jul 31, 2013
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#78,321
lukeabers said:
Bleh, my mistake. Skimmed it, thought it was the Caesar coin story. Apologies!!

Ok, so sure, Christ is playing diplomatic. What am I missing here (beside the massive miss I just made...)?
Click to expand...
probably we both miss an infinite amount. :p
it is not simple, in my belief; the Bible is never simple.

if the tax is the tax in Exodus 30:11-16 it is "for the ransom of your souls" then what is this event a picture of?

it comes right after Jesus tells them the gospel - that He will go and die and resurrect.
when the other disciples hear this they start asking about greatness in the kingdom, and Jesus tells them no, you must be like children ((ch. 18))

that's the context, right after revealing Himself as God ((transfiguration)) and removing a demon that they cannot because they lack faith. it's no accident that it's here.

why is it one coin, in a fish?
sufficient both for Jesus and for Peter?
why does He call him 'Simon' even while the rest of the text in the same sentence calls him Peter?
why doesn't He let Simon Peter speak?
why don't they ask about Peter's tax, only Christ's?
who is ultimately providing this ransom?
why is this paid even though He says the sons are exempt/free ?
what does He mean, 'lest we offend them' ? offend who? why does He care? are they supposed to be collecting this at all? are they supposed to be collecting this specifically from Christ? from Simon Peter?
why is the coin not a temple shekel?

((plus approx. 8,000 other questions that need answering))
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Studyman said:
This is a Bible discussion forum. I would be interested in which "SON" you believe represented the Christ as you said. I humbly ask that you share what the spirit has shown you.

Luke 15:
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Click to expand...
he told you.
Christ is God.
Christ is the father in this parable, and He welcomed the destitute son with rejoicing when he returned to Him.
the one who complains about His rejoicing over the lost sheep who looked to the Father in his iniquity is the pharisee.

who is the pharisee in Matthew 17:24-27?
what is he trying to do by approaching Simon Peter with a question about tax, disguised in false humility?
what pharisees always do - try to trap Jesus in His words so they can ((falsely)) accuse Him.
what's the trap in Matthew 17:24-27?
what are they planning to accuse Jesus of?
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#78,324
Jul 31, 2013
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#78,324
lukeabers said:
It simply does not. Your blindness is not cute.

Your speech is mostly fluff and repetitive. I love God but making verbose and pious statements do little if anything. I understand injecting a little bit of poetry, but that isn't what you are doing.
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i cringe when i hear preachers switch from plain English to "kjv-speech" when they close their sermons with a prayer...

.. on the other hand my own wife sometimes says 'thee' and 'thy' and i know when she does she's trying to express the utmost sincerity of her love to me.
e.g. she says, "i love you" often, and of course she means it, but it's kind of everyday or ordinary. sometimes she says "i love thee" and when she does, i know she is in those moments full of emotion. i know, even though it might be in a text or written on paper, that if i heard her say it i would hear something in her voice that's different, see something in her eyes that's more.

but maybe 100% of the time i hear someone give a sermon in regular, normal, common English, and suddenly start speaking like they're trying to quote Shakespeare from a foggy memory as soon as the start to pray into their microphone, i don't hear emotion. i hear pretentiousness & facade. and i cringe!
 
L

lukeabers

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posthuman said:
i cringe when i hear preachers switch from plain English to "kjv-speech" when they close their sermons with a prayer...

.. on the other hand my own wife sometimes says 'thee' and 'thy' and i know when she does she's trying to express the utmost sincerity of her love to me.
e.g. she says, "i love you" often, and of course she means it, but it's kind of everyday or ordinary. sometimes she says "i love thee" and when she does, i know she is in those moments full of emotion. i know, even though it might be in a text or written on paper, that if i heard her say it i would hear something in her voice that's different, see something in her eyes that's more.

but maybe 100% of the time i hear someone give a sermon in regular, normal, common English, and suddenly start speaking like they're trying to quote Shakespeare from a foggy memory as soon as the start to pray into their microphone, i don't hear emotion. i hear pretentiousness & facade. and i cringe!
Click to expand...
Alright, posthuman, what is your story? What are you up to? You are tougher to peg than most here.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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#78,328
Jul 31, 2013
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lukeabers said:
Fair enough, but I'm on wolf duty this shift.

I have a message and am here to receive a message. What are you here for?
Click to expand...
fellowship, growing in knowledge of God, etc

originally i found this forum several years ago because i was researching eclectic Christian music and one band i was trying to find, google-search only had like 4 hits, and one of them was someone in the music section mentioning them. can't even remember the band or the thread or anything now lol

came for the food, stayed because i found family. 'wherever two or more are gathered..'
i've learned alot, and i discovered i actually knew some things that some other people didn't so lo and behold, i was sometimes useful. not often, but sometimes hahaha
plus, there's a lack of mathematicians, so i could fill a role :LOL:

put it this way:
i study sword fighting. longsword specifically.
a huge part of doing that is practice. how do you get good at wielding a sword? spar. hear what masters have to say. watch others spar. train. constant use, building muscle-memory. actual engagement.
we have a sword, the Spirit, the Word. i'm not a complete idiot ((only partial)) -- so how do i gain skillfulness with it? same thing.
hence, Bible forum denizen. :)
 
L

lukeabers

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#78,329
posthuman said:
fellowship, growing in knowledge of God, etc

originally i found this forum several years ago because i was researching eclectic Christian music and one band i was trying to find, google-search only had like 4 hits, and one of them was someone in the music section mentioning them. can't even remember the band or the tread or anything now lol

came for the food, stayed because i found family. 'wherever two or more are gathered..'
i've learned alot, and i discovered i actually knew some things that some other people didn't so lo and behold, i was sometimes useful. not often, but sometimes hahaha
plus, there's a lack of mathematicians, so i could fill a role :LOL:

put it this way:
i study sword fighting. longsword specifically.
a huge part of doing that is practice. how do you get good at wielding a sword? spar. hear what masters have to say. watch others spar. train. constant use, building muscle-memory. actual engagement.
we have a sword, the Spirit, the Word. i'm not a complete idiot ((only partial)) -- so how do i gain skillfulness with it? same thing.
hence, Bible forum denizen. :)
Click to expand...
Nice.

Well, have you considered going pro?
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
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Oct 11, 2017
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posthuman said:
if your 'breastplate of righteousness' is you own works and words, seeing that you've just confessed your own works and words to be evil, you've got the wrong breastplate if it's a righteousness of your own works - even those works which are in obedience to Him.
​
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!​
(Galatians 2:21) ​
​
if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.​
(Galatians 3:21) ​
​
be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ -- the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.​
(Philippians 3:9) ​

every

word
Click to expand...
Again, you must defect from your own preaching. And God's instructions are His not mine. If I submit myself to them, I am submitting to His Righteousness, not my works.

But to the verses you posted to draw attention away from your own words. What Law was given by God to cleanse unrighteousness, or sins? It's an easy question to answer. I've asked before but you refuse to answer.

The Christ said "After those days" He Himself would forgive sins. Prior to that, what Law was given to remove sin? How was a man made righteous before "Those Days" according to the Law of Moses?

Did God direct a man to "love His neighbor" to atone for sins? How about " Keep God's Sabbath Holy"? Did the Christ say, if you sin, "Keep the Sabbath" and your sins will be cleansed?

No Post. The Bible, even yours, says that "Before those days" the Christ mentioned in Jer. 31, but 430 years after Abraham obeyed God, He created a "Priesthood LAW" specifically for 2 things.

#1. cleansing of sins

#2. Administration of God's Laws

According to this Law that Paul said was "ADDED", a person could be cleansed of his sins (Made Righteous) by following specific "Works of the Law". It was called the Levitical Priesthood in Hebrews 7-10.

The Mainstream Preachers of Paul's time were still pushing a version of these sacrificial "Works of the Law" for the remission of sins, and not Faith in the Christ who created this "shadow" of His Sacrifice in the first place.

It was not the blood of animals that made a man righteous, it was always the Blood of Christ slain from the foundation of the world. Zechariahs, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, these all knew this truth because they "Loved God" and kept His Commandments. And the Christ revealed Himself as He promised.

But the Pharisees didn't Love God, and didn't keep His Commandments. Therefore they didn't KNOW the prophesied Christ and continued to shed the blood of animals for righteousness, instead of having Faith in Christ as did Abraham.

In both Philippians and Galatians Paul is contending with the mainstream Preachers of His time who didn't believe Jesus was the prophesied Messiah and were still pushing "works of the Law" for "justification" of sins. As it is written.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, (the reason for the Priesthood in the first place) even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Heb. 10:
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, (AFTER THOSE DAYS) he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Of course, if you have been convinced that all of God's LAWS are unrighteous, and a burden and are against us, then you might twist these scriptures, as do many, to say Paul is speaking about the 10 Commandments and the Law and Prophets and not the Priesthood that the Christ said would end "After those days".

As you said: EVERY WORD
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Studyman said:
Of course, if you have been convinced that all of God's LAWS are unrighteous, and a burden and are against us
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do not slander one another
(James 4:11) ​

Studyman said:
then you might twist these scriptures, as do many, to say Paul is speaking about the 10 Commandments and the Law and Prophets and not the Priesthood that the Christ said would end "After those days".
Click to expand...
the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones
(2 Corinthians 3:7) ​


this is all previously discussed 7,000 times.

what does it have to do with Matthew 17:24-27?
you complain no one addresses you, but when i give you the scripture that addresses you, you utterly ignore it in favor of twisted personal attacks. for days on end.

get to studying, study-dude. it's saturday. :)
hating your brother is not the Lord's work.
 
L

lukeabers

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posthuman said:
do not slander one another​
(James 4:11) ​



the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones​
(2 Corinthians 3:7) ​


this is all previously discussed 7,000 times.

what does it have to do with Matthew 17:24-27?
you complain no one addresses you, but when i give you the scripture that addresses you, you utterly ignore it in favor of twisted personal attacks. for days on end.

get to studying, study-dude. it's saturday. :)
hating your brother is not the Lord's work.
Click to expand...

"hating your brother is not the Lord's work."

It sure isn't but at least you acknowledge you are brothers :D
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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lukeabers said:
Nice.

Well, have you considered going pro?
Click to expand...

nah i "aspire to live a quiet life, working with my hands"

but i do fight in some SCA tourneys sometimes. mostly get stabbed by rapiers, because, reach & speed.
but those guys are used to fighting other rapiers, and almost never expect you to close in, and usually don't realize how much leverage a two-handed grip gives you.
you can find joy in your art when you understand how to exploit the weaknesses of your opponent, and to limit the exposure of your own weaknesses to their strengths :)

joy is why i do what i do. for love.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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#78,335
lukeabers said:
"hating your brother is not the Lord's work."

It sure isn't but at least you acknowledge you are brothers :D
Click to expand...
He does acknowledge Jesus is Salvation, even though over the course of some 13 months of him talking at me i have become quite certain he does not understand the gospel. :)
 
L

lukeabers

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posthuman said:
nah i "aspire to live a quiet life, working with my hands"

but i do fight in some SCA tourneys sometimes. mostly get stabbed by rapiers, because, reach & speed.
but those guys are used to fighting other rapiers, and almost never expect you to close in, and usually don't realize how much leverage a two-handed grip gives you.
you can find joy in your art when you understand how to exploit the weaknesses of your opponent, and to limit the exposure of your own weaknesses to their strengths :)

joy is why i do what i do. for love.
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Well, wasn't talking about your longswording, though I would try you with a sabre :) (yes, lots of rolling and dodging you, haha)

Talking about, well, you know, going pro. Christendom is in shambles, as is evidenced by every church I have walked into this year, every Christian I have spoken to this year, and by every message board I have visited. Time to get some points on the board for our team. Talented? Ha. Christians are followers of the truth, an unnatural advantage in this world.

What's the worst that could happen? You exchange some of the time from posting here and instead work within a group, with training, support, funding, and a clear agenda....

Think about it. This account will be active for...well, January, I'm guessing.
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
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Oct 11, 2017
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posthuman said:
he told you.
Christ is God.
Christ is the father in this parable, and He welcomed the destitute son with rejoicing when he returned to Him.
the one who complains about His rejoicing over the lost sheep who looked to the Father in his iniquity is the pharisee.

who is the pharisee in Matthew 17:24-27?
what is he trying to do by approaching Simon Peter with a question about tax, disguised in false humility?
what pharisees always do - try to trap Jesus in His words so they can ((falsely)) accuse Him.
what's the trap in Matthew 17:24-27?
what are they planning to accuse Jesus of?
Click to expand...
You seem to once again omit the very reason for his reply.

I asked the question. "If the son had not returned and humbled himself to the Father in repentance and true sorrow, would he still have receive the blessing?

He replied "Christ is God, something I agree with, but not an answer to the question I posed. You also didn't answer the question. What is so difficult with this question?
 
S

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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#78,338
posthuman said:
He does acknowledge Jesus is Salvation, even though over the course of some 13 months of him talking at me i have become quite certain he does not understand the gospel. :)
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I understand and agree with the Gospel Post. It's your words and preaching that I question. It is also your choice to deflect from answering the very relevant questions I have asked, for some 13 months now.

Just because I don't follow your religious doctrines and traditions or the Popes, or Benny Hinn doesn't mean I don't understand the Gospel. Answer my questions? Make your case with something more than lip service. I'm all ears.

Remember: it's "EVERY WORD"
 
S

Studyman

Senior Member
#78,339
Oct 11, 2017
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#78,339
posthuman said:
do not slander one another​
(James 4:11) ​



the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones​
(2 Corinthians 3:7) ​


this is all previously discussed 7,000 times.

what does it have to do with Matthew 17:24-27?
you complain no one addresses you, but when i give you the scripture that addresses you, you utterly ignore it in favor of twisted personal attacks. for days on end.

get to studying, study-dude. it's saturday. :)
hating your brother is not the Lord's work.
Click to expand...
I don't hate you. And refusing to answer relevant questions about your own words is not "discussion". It's deflection.

Opening God's Word and showing where you have been misled is not hatred. It's God's Love.

And you omitted part of God's word in your attempt to promote your religion. Let's include all His Word's so we can better understand His message.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Heb. 8:
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb. 10:
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (What Law did Abraham have for the remission of sins?)

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, (Levitical Priesthood) that he may establish the second.

Heb. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

If you refuse to accept Paul's teaching regarding the difference between the "Law of Works" and the "Law of faith" then you will never understand the Gospel he furthered.

A little leaven.

Remember; EVERY WORD
 
star

star

Senior Member
#78,340
Nov 8, 2017
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#78,340
Studyman said:
This is true. But Jesus also says there are "Many" who claim Him as their Savior, who calls Him Lord, who believe that are His, but they are not.

Shouldn't we believe this as well, and study to make sure we are not part of that "Many"? Or should we just take some preachers word for it.
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I believe the Word of God which tells me nothing can separate me from Him. Once saved, always saved. If there are many who claim Him yet do not know Him, they were never saved to begin with.
 
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