(poll) Do We Choose Him or Does he choose us?

See, the difference is.... is I don't question my God! He is GOD! He can do what He wants, when He wants, and how He wants to whom He wants.

To me, asking questions like that raises doubt and raises the question if someone is truly sincere in serving this God that allowed lucifer to live and plant that tree; possibly trying to find fault in a perfect, righteous, holy, God!

Not that u're doing that, but just stating my opinion. I just find it irrelevant and a bit arrogant to question the living God. Asking why God let lucifer live or why He planted the tree are questions that raise suspicion on His very reason for why He did it. And I personally don't capitalize that demons name b/c he doesn't deserve any recognition.

The Bible says "He chooses us, he loved us first"

for me it has to do with the question of whether His omniscience is temporal or not.

God knows all things. is there any time then at which there is any thing that He does not know?
i think the answer is no - that His omniscience is omnipresent in time. that before time, He knows all of time, and at all times, He knows all times.

so to me the idea that He 'looks down the line of time' and sees something in the future, and based on what He sees, predestines, is absurd. it's as though that idea is saying He lacks some knowledge at some point in time ((before He looks at the future)) and then He gains that knowledge, and by it purposes the very future that's been 'revealed' to Him. that's inane, to me, because He has all knowledge at all times. nothing 'becomes known to Him' - He knows every thing at every time, in fact He knows it before time exists. He never lacks.

maybe it's because i'm looking at it like a math problem to graph, but i think the common conception of 'foreknowledge' is bizarre. it just doesn't make logical sense to me; hasn't sat right since i was a little kid first hearing someone talk about it in sunday school.

I didn't say question God. I said, ask yourself these questions.
And Lucifer was not a demon.

You are free to believe anything you wish and you are also free to say you would never question scriptures teaching. However, questions are not an offense to God. And indeed Exegesis is grounded in them.

To question why God let lucifer live, which to me is a demon from hell no matter how one wants to view it, is, imo, an implication that God did something wrong. To ask why He would put a tree there to basically 'tempt' Adam and Eve is also an implication that God did something wrong. God does NO wrong! Simple as that to me. It's fine if one wants to ask those silly questions, but it's not part of my faith or theology or "Exegesis". Blessings!

Well as I said, you're free to believe anything you wish. Including that asking questions is wrong.
You can believe, for example, Lucifer was a demon from Hell but in fact Lucifer was not. That's a fact of scripture. Therefore, your belief about Lucifer is contrary to the scripture, and in fact, because of what we're told of Lucifer, is putting your own belief about Lucifer above what God created as Lucifer.
In other words, your belief , given Lucifers origin before the fall, is that God allowed a demon from Hell to first reside in Heaven as an angel.
Blessings.

I know what lucifer is, I just choose to call him a demon from hell. SMH, read b/w the lines much?

Not sure why made this point? Of course God made everyone..

I think we have to remember, Trying to limit God to our understanding can lead to erronious thinking

The though God predestined people based on knowledge makes sense. God said I will go and pay for sin, and these people who will come to faith and ask me to save them, I chose or elect to save.

It also helps in his soverignty. As God will choose people he KNOWS will do what he needs them to do to do what he needs. Like Pharoah. There could have been 10 men who could have had that position, God chose the one who would do what he needed, and as the word says he raised him up and put him in that position.

Free will does not negate or hamper gods soverignty. God is God. He can do what he wants, and there is more than enough people to do the things he needs done, he does not have to force anyone to do anything (though he can like he did Jonah, put roadblocks and lead people to do what he needs)

imho

Yeah? I suppose, if one believes in the sovereignty of the "spirit of anti-christ?" Meaning NO "pushing back?" In a "lobster in the pot" scenario? Which reinforces that end, which God seen from the beginning of this world/heaven age? Then? Yeah man! It Pretty MUCH takes ACCOUNTABILITY out of Christian hands, doesn't it? (sittin' here, on my hands.....WAITIN' FOR the RAPTURE!)

And? Rather makes what satan said to God, concerning Job", all the more so, don't it? (which, btw, imho, holds sway, concerning this entire world/heaven age. where we could liken Job, to this entire "evil and perverse" "GENERATION!"....But, that's just what "I" see! )
(meaning, I agree with ya, but, feel it necessary, in typing it out, so as to avoid any assumptions, that, somehow manage to "creep in unawares." Including my own postings! )

2 Thessalonians 2
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Far as Grace leading to lasciviousness? Takes a lot of blindness, and wilful ignorance, getting there, or remaining there. But? God FORBID!!

Hebrews 6
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that ACCOMPANY Salvation, though we thus speak.

Yes, it's all him, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31!

He chooses those who go to Him, who seek Him with all their heart.

He causes those He has chosen to seek Him with all their heart....

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

All unsaved sinners have good desires.
I even heard of one unsaved sinner who desired to brush his teeth. Good good good!
It doesn't take the indwelt Holy Spirit to cause a sinner to desire to escape eternity in the lake of fire; the outdwelt, convicting Holy Spirit efficiently causes that desire. Of course that same caused-desire can be blown off. Bad bad bad!

This issue is part of the ongoing never ending debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. Calvinists say God reaches in and causes us to believe in God and Jesus. Arminianists say we choose. The dividing issue is caused by the interpretation of the "the carnal mind is enmity against God"

Both sides have long statements of their view backed up by scripture!

Depends on the reason for asking why. If to better understand God and Jesus fine. But if trying to tear Him down is foolish to the extreme. Atheist viewpoint!!

My wife had chosen me before I chose her....lol

I put my vote on the second choice, but the first is also true if rightly understood.

My thoughts are, without faith (Christ's) working in us to both will and do His good pleasure no one could believe, him not seen. No one after the imagination of his own heart (no faith) could seek after God in order to have His understanding . Romans 3

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans 3:10-11

In verse three we are informed For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief(no faith) make the faith of God without effect?.Romans 3:3

From my experiences the idea of being born with "no faith", not little but none must be avoided.

How could we believe without the faith of Christ working in us to make it possible????

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