Not By Works

I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....

Just came across this article on the internet. It explains why there is so much disagreements about faith vs works. There is a problem with the Greek language expressing Hebrew concepts. Paul and James struggled to do this. Hopefully this will give you a better understanding about why the disagreements.

Do Paul and James Disagree About “Faith”?
By Dr. Yeshaya Gruber
October 22, 2018

The question of “faith vs. works” has often baffled—and even enraged—biblical interpreters. Different Christian groups (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.) proclaim different views, sometimes fighting with each other over the correct interpretation. All of them contrast their own position with the “old” Jewish way of thinking. So where does all this conflict and confusion come from?

An apparent contradiction lies at the root of the controversy. Saul/Paul of Tarsus writes, “For we hold that one is justified by faith (πίστις; pistis) apart from works of the Law” (Romans 3:28, ESV; cf. Rom 5:1; Gal 2:16, 3:11, 3:24). But then Jacob/James of Jerusalem says, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith (πίστις; pistis) alone” (2:24, ESV). Some Christian theologians take one side or the other in this “debate,” while others try to show that the apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction.

Yet for all the argument and discussion, one of the most important factors is often neglected completely. Both Jacob/James and Saul/Paul were actually first-century Jews who lived in a hybrid Hebrew-Greek environment. Like others in this situation, they struggled to express and discuss Hebrew ideas in the Greek language. Just before Jacob/James states that becoming “just” involves “works” rather than merely “faith alone,” he exclaims, “You foolish fellow, can’t you see that ‘faith’ apart from works is useless?!” (2:20). This outburst reflects the fact – difficult to convey in Greek – that the Hebrew word for “faith” (אמונה; emunah) means a lifestyle of steadfast reliability.

Saul/Paul was no less frustrated with his audience when it came to understanding the Jewish idea of “faith” – he even calls the Galatians “mindless” (Gal 3:1) with regard to this topic. In context, he was arguing that the way to be considered “just” is to live a lifestyle of steadfast reliability in the way of truth, and that this doesn’t depend on whether one is Jewish and follows the Torah of Moses, or is a Gentile and therefore not obliged to keep all the same commandments.

Both authors found themselves limited by the language they had to use. Each chose a different angle or tack in employing Greek words to express Hebrew/Jewish ideas. This created the impression of a major contradiction, one that would even cause religious schisms! Thankfully, today we have many tools for understanding the original Jewish-Greek context and decoding the deep meanings of such ancient letters.

PS. The bottom line is that faith and works go together; this is what scripture teaches. Faith is the basis; works the evidence. Start with John 5:29. Let me know if you want more....

hey i can't get studydude to give an answer, and Endoscopy appears to have given up quickly -- what do you think Matthew 17:22-18:5 means?

I have given you, through the Word of God, many answers. You just don't believe ALL His Words.

I have given you, through the Word of God, many answers. You just don't believe ALL His Words.

Morning all...
This is for those who are having trouble understanding the simple word believe...

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Revelation 22:18-21
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints.
Amen.

1 Corinthians 14:33
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Some posters on here are very confused , and will cause babes in Christ confusion , may the LORD our God protect them ...
Young ones in our LORD , when you read the word BELIEVE in your bible , that is what it means , to believe , nothing more , nothing less , believe in the LORD Jesus Christ with all your heart , mind , soul and the strength that comes from the Holy Spirit inside you , in Jesus precious name Amen...xox...

You know what is interesting.

You have the same gospel they do. Do good. Obey god (allah) , Follow his commands. And you might get to heaven.

True christianity is nothing like that. True christianity is God saying You can not do good enough or any amount of work to save yourself. So I will come save you.

First the issue of abrogation meaning later spoken verses replace earlier ones when they conflict. This is ridiculous for a perfect document coming down from heaven.

Times up Bill . I at least appreciate the crumb of honesty it took to just walk away from this discussion without misrepresentations and name-calling .

Some background .
Yes , The Father gave His Son , His Son gave His life for the sins of the world .
I understand Salvation is by Grace , through Faith .
I understand that nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them to Him .

Without going into detail about specifics on those understandings are you in a basic agreement?

Can we start our discussion at this beginning stage where the Father is calling or drawing people to Christ ?

I only discuss scripture with those who can prove they've faithed into Him . Sorry , I just haven't been following your understandings closely enough .

Times up Bill . I at least appreciate the crumb of honesty it took to just walk away from this discussion without misrepresentations and name-calling .

No such thing as believing in Jesus . That word is a mistranslation . Do a little research . You and your households lives may depend on it .

No such thing as a saved believer .

Sorry I didn't realise there was a time limit.



As John states

John 3:16-21
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
18 “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.”

The Strongs says it doesn't , " pisteuo means NOT just to believe " . Your saying the best , most exhaustive , crossed referenced with all the top dictionarys , are wrong and you are right .

What are you qualifications in the Greek language that gives you the thinking your opinion means anything , much less can override theirs ?

What I really look at is the desire in which people want to know Christ better . Even today towards the end of my journey , if someone presents something that may give a better understanding of Him , I'm all over it , no hesitation .

would it be a misrepresentation to say that before you will discuss scripture with someone you need them to prove they are "faithing" enough ..... on some unannounced timeframe?
(all the while saying their lives and the lives of their households may depend on what you say.... but there is no such thing as a saved believer?)

What I really look at is the desire in which people want to know Christ better . Even today towards the end of my journey , if someone presents something that may give a better understanding of Him , I'm all over it , no hesitation .

But you have not demonstrated knowledge of Him or His word.

I am truly new friend. I did not say you said that. I simply made a statement because there is a false dichotomy in the church that if you are called to live faithfully it is a works based salvation. The Bible makes the point over and over that faith is accompanied by works except in the most extreme of cases.....

With a wife and 4 kids I can't work on a time limit.

They come first.
And I really enjoyed date night with my wife last night. We had a meal while watching Highway to Heaven (no laughing anyone)

Sometimes we pray, discuss the Bible.
Chew the cud as we say over here.

Not wishing to be rude but her company far surpasses yours.
So I will respond when I can.

Bill