Not By Works
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There is a difference between through and from. Are you denying the law is from God? Here is Jesus on the law and a reference to the laws found in the Torah.
Matthew 5 AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html
Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
Matthew 5 AMPC
17 Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.
18 For truly I tell you, until the sky and earth pass away and perish, not one smallest letter nor one little hook [identifying certain Hebrew letters] will pass from the Law until all things [it foreshadows] are accomplished.
19 Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.
List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html
Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments
I just looked at a couple of books I bought years ago. They are about codes in the original languages of the Bible. Some rabbis found the begining of the 5 books of the Torah had codes. 4 were the same and the fifth was different. Codes are a message found by starting with a letter and going in an interval forwards or backwards every so many letters. The idea intrigued the Israeli version of our MIT university. Some students worked on a software algorithm that would do this function with the Hebrew language of the old Testament. What they found was amazing. There was a list of recent men's names with birth and death dates. One listed the current prime minister of Israel and after being alerted his version of our secret service protection of the president they captured a person attempting to assassinate him on that date. In 2 Messianic passages it had Jesus, it is he, and the list of disciples excluding Judas and including the one who took his place. Both sets were basically identical. There are 2 books filled with these. Think about the awesome foreknowledge of God to cause this. It demonstrates the fact of God knowing the end from the beginning.
ROTFL
You ignore history. Why is that? You rant foolishness.
First the creeds were not Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church came much later. It is obvious you ignore the difference between catholic and Catholic. The first means universal and the second is part of the name of a church.
Second the creeds were the definition created by the early elders of what a Christian must believe. As such they were used as an evangelism tool. That along with selected Bible verses.
Third at that time in history Bibles were very expensive and rare since it took months for a scribe to copy it by hand. Therefore your Bible only means the word of God could not be spread like today with the printing press.
Fourth you have never ever stated where the doctrinal statements of the creeds are in error. You just ignorantly rant against them claiming they are something they are not. Refute them or shut up about them. Prove they are not Christian!!!
Why do you try to impose 21st century technology on 212 to 500 when the creeds were written by the early elders?
You ignore history. Why is that? You rant foolishness.
First the creeds were not Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church came much later. It is obvious you ignore the difference between catholic and Catholic. The first means universal and the second is part of the name of a church.
Second the creeds were the definition created by the early elders of what a Christian must believe. As such they were used as an evangelism tool. That along with selected Bible verses.
Third at that time in history Bibles were very expensive and rare since it took months for a scribe to copy it by hand. Therefore your Bible only means the word of God could not be spread like today with the printing press.
Fourth you have never ever stated where the doctrinal statements of the creeds are in error. You just ignorantly rant against them claiming they are something they are not. Refute them or shut up about them. Prove they are not Christian!!!
Why do you try to impose 21st century technology on 212 to 500 when the creeds were written by the early elders?
The law of gravity has been superseded by the law of aerodynamics, just as the law of sin and death has been superseded by the law of faith/law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:22-28; 8:1-2) 
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""isn't it human tradition, as far as religion & justification before God, to keep a bunch of laws? to attain worthiness by our works? to establish a righteousness for ourselves? to lay out a group or ordinances and regulations, by which man says they are 'holy' if they obey them? setting up a means of comparison between men - this one is holier, he keeps more of these regulations; this one is not as holy, he fails - setting up a way for men to judge one another?"
I am exposing how a little leaven, or untruths that we preserve in our minds, like in your case, "God didn't give man His Law until Moses" or "God's commandments and ordinances are no different than any pagan religious "bunch of laws" or "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God", infect our understanding of the Gospel in general. Every thing you preach is influenced by these falsehoods. Every part of your understanding is founded in part on these falsehoods and it shows in your many posts. This is why Jesus said "a little Leaven (untruth) leavens the whole lump. This is also why Jesus said " keep the "bunch of Laws" that I created for you and I will ask the Father to give you the Spirit of Truth so you will be able to discern these untruths and escape the deception they bring.
This is why you and I disagree on so many things. I know God didn't wait until 430 years after Abraham to give His People His instructions and scripture confirms it.. He waited until then to give a Priesthood to Levi for the cleansing of man, until the Seed should come. But to Love and how to Love He gave His people from the beginning.
At any rate, I could continue to post your religion based on more of your own words, but my goal here is not to shame you, or attack you. In fact as I have stated many times, it's not about you at all. It's about the religious doctrines you further which are contrary to the Word of God.
And yes, there are instances when I would PM someone to have a private conversation about doctrines, and I do as some on this forum know. But Jesus wasn't inclined to do so to those who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, neither was Stephen, Peter or the Prophets. You want to have a private conversation, PM me. Until then I will feel free to openly comment and discuss your replies that you openly penned to my posts.
I am exposing how a little leaven, or untruths that we preserve in our minds, like in your case, "God didn't give man His Law until Moses" or "God's commandments and ordinances are no different than any pagan religious "bunch of laws" or "The Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God", infect our understanding of the Gospel in general. Every thing you preach is influenced by these falsehoods. Every part of your understanding is founded in part on these falsehoods and it shows in your many posts. This is why Jesus said "a little Leaven (untruth) leavens the whole lump. This is also why Jesus said " keep the "bunch of Laws" that I created for you and I will ask the Father to give you the Spirit of Truth so you will be able to discern these untruths and escape the deception they bring.
This is why you and I disagree on so many things. I know God didn't wait until 430 years after Abraham to give His People His instructions and scripture confirms it.. He waited until then to give a Priesthood to Levi for the cleansing of man, until the Seed should come. But to Love and how to Love He gave His people from the beginning.
At any rate, I could continue to post your religion based on more of your own words, but my goal here is not to shame you, or attack you. In fact as I have stated many times, it's not about you at all. It's about the religious doctrines you further which are contrary to the Word of God.
And yes, there are instances when I would PM someone to have a private conversation about doctrines, and I do as some on this forum know. But Jesus wasn't inclined to do so to those who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, neither was Stephen, Peter or the Prophets. You want to have a private conversation, PM me. Until then I will feel free to openly comment and discuss your replies that you openly penned to my posts.
your words. not mine.
demonstrating again that you either fail to comprehend what i say or that you willfully twist it.
how about giving the context of this quote from me?
how about answering the question in it - is is or is it not true that the tradition of men when forming their own religions is to fill it with regulations by which to measure others and boast of themselves by adherence to?
because what i was saying in that quote is not about the righteousness of God but about the outward facade of righteousness that men make for themselves.
demonstrating again that you either fail to comprehend what i say or that you willfully twist it.
how about giving the context of this quote from me?
how about answering the question in it - is is or is it not true that the tradition of men when forming their own religions is to fill it with regulations by which to measure others and boast of themselves by adherence to?
because what i was saying in that quote is not about the righteousness of God but about the outward facade of righteousness that men make for themselves.
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P
What loopholes ?
See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .
Here is what I'm putting on the table .
1) Pisteuo is the Greek word used 248 times in the NT .
2) todays church world has been decieved by the mistranslatied words believe , believer , and believing .
3) the Strongs gives the disclaimer ," pisteuo means NOT just to believe . And defines pisteuo as committed to committed unto , reliance upon , trusting unto .
4) The Vines defines pisteuo as ," a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."
None of this is my opinion , but I absolutely support these definitions by scholars more qualified than both of us .
So tell me about these loopholes you would have to force yourself to pummel me with . You not only misreprebting me , your misrepresenting yourself also .
See if you can answer this without misrepresentations .
Here is what I'm putting on the table .
1) Pisteuo is the Greek word used 248 times in the NT .
2) todays church world has been decieved by the mistranslatied words believe , believer , and believing .
3) the Strongs gives the disclaimer ," pisteuo means NOT just to believe . And defines pisteuo as committed to committed unto , reliance upon , trusting unto .
4) The Vines defines pisteuo as ," a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth ."
None of this is my opinion , but I absolutely support these definitions by scholars more qualified than both of us .
So tell me about these loopholes you would have to force yourself to pummel me with . You not only misreprebting me , your misrepresenting yourself also .
P
Your description of yourself reminds me of the gifted teachers God gives to perfect the called out ones . I've known one in 33 years , and I've been looking for them .
I don't discuss God's Word for a reason . I reserve that privilege for those who can show me it's theres to talk about .
Rosemary God is waiting for your surrendered life . A half measure will avail nothing . Not as in perfection , as in genuine .
I don't discuss God's Word for a reason . I reserve that privilege for those who can show me it's theres to talk about .
Rosemary God is waiting for your surrendered life . A half measure will avail nothing . Not as in perfection , as in genuine .
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My life of faith started several years ago when I placed my faith (belief, trust, confidence, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation after leaving the Roman Catholic church, so I am not stuck outside of Christ at the drawing of the Father phase, but I find your false accusation to be ironic.
Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. According to Ephesians 1:13 and Romans 1:16, believing the gospel is enough to be saved and does not leave you stuck outside of Christ.
As I already previously explained to you (but unfortunately it continues to fall on deaf ears) John 1:12 is attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Romans 5:1) and that is the ROOT of salvation.
The FRUIT of salvation would be living by or "out of" faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition, which reads - For we walk/live by faith and not by sight. This is our continued walk with the Lord by which by or "out of" faith believers bear fruit/produce works. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS and produces good works would be the FRUIT. The Vine's definition is mixing Cause and Effect.
Your alleged "complete" definition of pisteuo amounts to salvation by grace through faith PLUS WORKS, contrary to salvation through faith, NOT WORKS (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). The natural man CANNOT UNDERSTAND and is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED (1 Corinthians 2:14). The gospel is hid to those who DON'T BELIEVE (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
As I previously mentioned in post #76,740, I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. *Nothing there about a life inspired by such surrender which follows saving faith in Christ/fruit of faith/good works being mixed in with the definition of Pisteuo.* In the saving sense of Pisteuo, I agree with Strong's. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
BUT, don't lose sight of the fact that depending on the CONTEXT, Pisteuo can mean just to believe. *In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/confidence/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust/confidence/reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *Keep in mind the Greek for "believe" in James 2:19 is Pisteuo. No personal surrender to Christ there or a life inspired by such surrender.
Believing, trusting, confidence, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation is the complete definition of Pisteuo, as the Strong's says. No supplements needed. Your warped view of Pisteuo based on your skewed view of Vine's and Strong's has blinded you to the truth.
Your choice. You can repent and entrust your spiritual well being to Christ by placing your trust, confidence, reliance in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or you can refuse to repent and continue to trust in works for salvation and remain in unbelief. I hope and pray that you make the right choice!
You are fighting against the truth, not for the truth just as you are fighting against believers, not for them. You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.
Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. According to Ephesians 1:13 and Romans 1:16, believing the gospel is enough to be saved and does not leave you stuck outside of Christ.
As I already previously explained to you (but unfortunately it continues to fall on deaf ears) John 1:12 is attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Romans 5:1) and that is the ROOT of salvation.
The FRUIT of salvation would be living by or "out of" faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition, which reads - For we walk/live by faith and not by sight. This is our continued walk with the Lord by which by or "out of" faith believers bear fruit/produce works. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS and produces good works would be the FRUIT. The Vine's definition is mixing Cause and Effect.
Your alleged "complete" definition of pisteuo amounts to salvation by grace through faith PLUS WORKS, contrary to salvation through faith, NOT WORKS (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). The natural man CANNOT UNDERSTAND and is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED (1 Corinthians 2:14). The gospel is hid to those who DON'T BELIEVE (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
As I previously mentioned in post #76,740, I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. *Nothing there about a life inspired by such surrender which follows saving faith in Christ/fruit of faith/good works being mixed in with the definition of Pisteuo.* In the saving sense of Pisteuo, I agree with Strong's. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.
BUT, don't lose sight of the fact that depending on the CONTEXT, Pisteuo can mean just to believe. *In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/confidence/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust/confidence/reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. *Keep in mind the Greek for "believe" in James 2:19 is Pisteuo.
No personal surrender to Christ there or a life inspired by such surrender.Believing, trusting, confidence, reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation is the complete definition of Pisteuo, as the Strong's says. No supplements needed. Your warped view of Pisteuo based on your skewed view of Vine's and Strong's has blinded you to the truth.
Your choice. You can repent and entrust your spiritual well being to Christ by placing your trust, confidence, reliance in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or you can refuse to repent and continue to trust in works for salvation and remain in unbelief. I hope and pray that you make the right choice!
You are fighting against the truth, not for the truth just as you are fighting against believers, not for them. You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on Christian Chat.
Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.
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