Why does God allow abuse?

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cinder

cinder

Senior Member
#21
Mar 26, 2014
4,425
2,416
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#21
A few more thoughts to add to the discussion:

When I lived overseas I was surprised by two general co-existing attitudes I found. 1) Acceptance that life is hard and painful. To the point that it was no longer evil, suffering, injustice, and corruption that were considered strange or unexpected; rather it was people who were upright and self sacrificing that stuck out as the exception and not the rule. In such a worldview it is not the evil that God permits that seems extreme, but rather the good that he does. Sometimes I wonder how much of our struggle with people being evil is based on the influence of philosophies that believe people are basically good (and is such a belief compatible with the christian doctrine that all have sinned?).

2) Service to God/ idols / spirits/ etc. is primarily for making life easier. And I was really challenged by a friend who asked "Well what is it Christians pray for?" I don't remember what I answered exactly, but the impression was along the lines of health and protection for self and family, guidance to know what to do and my friend responded "OK yeah so that's basically the same as us and our faith then" (which is completely not the impression you want to give when you're supposed to be being a missionary). But as I think about it so often we relate to God on a make things better, more comfortable, less painful for me basis (to the point that now when things are pretty good and stable in my life I struggle with how exactly faith fits in with a life that is good). I'm not sure I like that, my view of God seems to be stuck in such a box, especially when that's a box that doesn't work so well for much of the world. And that's leading to a growing conviction that the good news is only worthy of being called good news if it works for those in the worst situations and is good news to those with the deepest hurts.

Lynx said:
A cogent point. Human brains only seem to have one scale, and we resize all our experiences to fit, as Randal Monroe said.

Now you have me imagining a world where nothing really "bad" as we know it ever happens... and somebody stubs his toe on the corner of a chair and starts questioning why God would allow such a terrible thing to happen, because that's the worst thing they know.
Click to expand...
I think I first picked up that idea from reading The worthing saga by Orson scott card. Part of the story I remember (and I need to read it again because most of the story is pretty fuzzy) had to do with a planet that had been protected so that the people were spared as much pain as absolutely possible and then what happened when the protectors realized they could no longer do the job and had to start letting pain and bad things happen. I do recommend the book (most of his books, they're really quite good).
 
S

Sweetmorningdew78

Guest
#22
#22
zeroturbulence said:
I understand he allows freewill, but the real reason I ask is because of cases like this boy who was in the news here. He was tortured, beaten, burned and shot with a bb gun by his parents (both of them) until he finally died of his injuries. The only way they found out was because they took him to the hospital and the staff there noticed bruises and stuff. They found bb's embedded in his skin. His teeth were knocked out by a baseball bat (they figured out it was a baseball bat). He was only 8 years old. They determined that the abuse had gone on for years. Why does God allow that stuff to happen? I'll be honest... I'm really ready to give up on my faith. Not because of this story, but things that I've been dealing with personally. Things that have got me really questioning god... if he really is who he says he is. If he's all-powerful and good, why does he allow an innocent, helpless child to die a slow torturous death?
Click to expand...

Just like you Zero I am asking that too...why so many Innocent people suffer...so many children died in the hands of selfish people :( why God didn't stop it...but I feel ashamed to question the Lord because I have no right not even a tiny right to do that to the creator of heaven,earth and mankind.


God is God He is LORD we can't question Him and put Him in the accused stand. He is the creator of Heaven and earth He is not our caregiver but He is our Lord. No one in this whole world can accuse God. HE is God and He has no obligation to you and me. We have no right but instead He has all the rights to put us into the accused stand but He didn't do that He gave His life and He died for us...so that we can live. We separated ourselves from God All the horrible things that happened and still happening its all because we live in this fallen world where sin reigns... God sees everything the hatred the selfishness of mankind He sees all and it hurts HiM and He doesn't want us to be in the darkness where lies,deceits, selfishness ,sorrow,death and wickedness reigns that is why Jesus died for us to rescue us from the pit of destruction.

I still have Many things that I don't understand maybe I won't get answer till my last breath here on earth but I believe that in heaven the answer will be in front of my eyes and JESUS will say to me my daughter this is it..I still suffer and maybe until my last breath I will experience trials and suffering here on earth but I know in heaven God prepares many rooms for His children where's there's no pain, no suffering.

Zero, I can see your beautiful heart and the LORD knows your struggles I pray to God to fill your heart with peace and comfort all the time ❤
 
H

Hungry

Banned
#23
Nov 26, 2012
3,095
1,050
113
#23
ZT, aren’t the answers to your questions obvious? The reason everyone likes to point the finger at God is because they don’t want to point it at themselves. Sin in general is directly related to an overall lack of love in the world. WE are His Body! WE are His hands and feet in this world. People are loveless and angry. Our mission/purpose/mandate is to spread love and peace. The Church failed this boy because years before nobody taught love and peace to his mom and her boyfriend. They too are products of this diseased society. What abuse did they suffer? When does it stop? Answer: when we step in. This tortured boy can now be either a link in a continuous chain of abuse or a Christian (God’s hands and feet), can intervene and show this boy love and mercy. Perhaps this boy goes to the abusers one day and shows them love and forgiveness. Maybe their hearts fill with the love of God through the power of the Spirit and they in turn be born anew.

The sad truth is that the Body of Believers are a bunch of whiners. It’s like the brain is sending a signal to the hands, “Get out of the fire and grab an extinguisher,” but the hands say, “Do it yourself!”

What people are we ignoring now that will be the abusers of tomorrow? Who stepped in and showed us the love of God initiating our adoption. ZT, quit shaking your fist and pick up a broom, this place is a mess. We are servants, not accusers. That job is already filled!
 
seoulsearch

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
#24
May 23, 2009
16,424
5,371
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#24
Hi Gabe,

I was thinking a little more about this thread today. I don't know if any of this will help you, but here goes. :)

I know that when I was growing up in the Lutheran schools and church, I liked to ask a lot of questions similar to what you're asking here.

I was always told to "look at Job", and all he suffered, and how he didn't lose his faith. It seemed that this was always the go-to answer, at least at my church and school. Upset about the world today? "Look at Job, and all the evil he suffered!" Problems with your health or family? "Look at Job, he lost his family AND his health, and yet, he still followed God?" Stubbed your toe while walking into the classroom? "Look at Job! He didn't murmur or complain, he just gave thanks to God?"

It became obvious that the universal answer (at least in that community) was to "Look at Job".

And so, when I got to be a little older, I did something I don't think anyone ever thought I would actually do: I sat down and read the book of Job (and the rest of the Bible) for myself.

And do you know what I found? Job was human. Job didn't just sit there quietly the whole time, but indeed got upset, and though he kept his faith, he got so mad that at one point, he even cursed the day he was born. Job did not just piously thank God for every horrible thing that happened to him.

But the most curious thing I found is that if you look closely, Job's friends came and told him... All the exact same things that many Christian circles tell us today. His friends told him, "Who are you to question God? He is too wondrous for you to even speak of," and surely Job must have some hidden sin that was the cause for all this calamity. But Job flatly told them that they were "miserable counselors" and pretty much says, "If you don't have anything better to say, don't say anything to me at all."

Now of course, God actually does show up and is the one to say, "If you know so much, can YOU answer all the things I'm about to ask you?" BUT, curiously, in the end, God tells Job to pray FOR HIS FRIENDS, because God says that they have angered Him and "not said what was right about Me, as my servant Job has." I often puzzled over why God was angry with Job's friends, when they were telling him all the good, Christian things everyone else told me (and still tells us today.)

Could it be that it was because Job was honest with God about how he felt, rather than glossing his true feelings over with pious-sounding cliches? Did Job's friends actually have all the same questions he had, but felt it was better and "the spiritual thing to do" by telling Job he had no right to question God, when in their own hearts, maybe they were silencing their own questions?

I had to wonder if all those people who told me to "look at Job"... had actually ever read the book of Job themselves, or if I was misunderstanding everything I was reading.

My point here is that people, even those who were closest to God, have been questioning Him from the beginning of time, and while there are probably innumerable things we can't understand or never will in this life or ever, God never seems to tire of our questions, which is something I love most about Him.

The prophet Habakkuk asked many of the same questions you're asking, Gabe: "How long, Lord, must I call to You for help and You do not listen, or cry out to You about violence and You do not save? Why do You force me to look at injustice? Why do You tolerate wrongdoing? Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and You cannot tolerate wrongdoing. So why do You tolerate those who are treacherous?" (Habakkuk 1: 2,3,13.)

And God tells Habakkuk (2:2-4) -- "Write down this vision, clearly inscribe it on tablets so one may easily read it. For the vision is yet for the appointed time; it testifies about the end and will not lie. Though it delays, wait for it, since it will certainly come and not be late."

God basically tells Habakkuk, "I know you don't see it, and I know you can't fully understand it, but I'm going to do something about this, and you just have to trust me that it will come at an appointed time."

And as for the little ones who suffer, Jesus Himself said that if anyone caused them to stumble, it would be "better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea." (Matt. 18:6.)

God doesn't miss or overlook anything, Gabe. And He knows you are questioning Him with an honest heart, which seems to be a lot more important to God than telling Him what we are told is best to say.

Don't give up. God knows. Waiting for that "appointed time" when God will set things right sure seems like a bummer, but as Christians, we have faith that we know that day will eventually come, which is probably one of the reasons why He allows things to happen as they do. If we didn't see all the wrong this world does, we wouldn't be able to see the difference when God sets it right.

I've also heard that this world "is the closest to heaven an unbeliever will ever know, and for the believer, this is the closest to hell they will ever get."

I know the waiting seems horrible, Gabe. But please don't give up, and may God bless you as you seek Him and wait.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#25
Apr 22, 2013
13,572
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#25
seoulsearch said:
Hi Gabe,

I was thinking a little more about this thread today. I don't know if any of this will help you, but here goes. :)

I know that when I was growing up in the Lutheran schools and church, I liked to ask a lot of questions similar to what you're asking here.

I was always told to "look at Job", and all he suffered, and how he didn't lose his faith. It seemed that this was always the go-to answer, at least at my church and school. Upset about the world today? "Look at Job, and all the evil he suffered!" Problems with your health or family? "Look at Job, he lost his family AND his health, and yet, he still followed God?" Stubbed your toe while walking into the classroom? "Look at Job! He didn't murmur or complain, he just gave thanks to God?"

It became obvious that the universal answer (at least in that community) was to "Look at Job".

And so, when I got to be a little older, I did something I don't think anyone ever thought I would actually do: I sat down and read the book of Job (and the rest of the Bible) for myself.

And do you know what I found? Job was human. Job didn't just sit there quietly the whole time, but indeed got upset, and though he kept his faith, he got so mad that at one point, he even cursed the day he was born. Job did not just piously thank God for every horrible thing that happened to him.

But the most curious thing I found is that if you look closely, Job's friends came and told him... All the exact same things that many Christian circles tell us today. His friends told him, "Who are you to question God? He is too wondrous for you to even speak of," and surely Job must have some hidden sin that was the cause for all this calamity. But Job flatly told them that they were "miserable counselors" and pretty much says, "If you don't have anything better to say, don't say anything to me at all."

Now of course, God actually does show up and is the one to say, "If you know so much, can YOU answer all the things I'm about to ask you?" BUT, curiously, in the end, God tells Job to pray FOR HIS FRIENDS, because God says that they have angered Him and "not said what was right about Me, as my servant Job has." I often puzzled over why God was angry with Job's friends, when they were telling him all the good, Christian things everyone else told me (and still tells us today.)

Could it be that it was because Job was honest with God about how he felt, rather than glossing his true feelings over with pious-sounding cliches? Did Job's friends actually have all the same questions he had, but felt it was better and "the spiritual thing to do" by telling Job he had no right to question God, when in their own hearts, maybe they were silencing their own questions?

I had to wonder if all those people who told me to "look at Job"... had actually ever read the book of Job themselves, or if I was misunderstanding everything I was reading.

My point here is that people, even those who were closest to God, have been questioning Him from the beginning of time, and while there are probably innumerable things we can't understand or never will in this life or ever, God never seems to tire of our questions, which is something I love most about Him.

The prophet Habakkuk asked many of the same questions you're asking, Gabe: "How long, Lord, must I call to You for help and You do not listen, or cry out to You about violence and You do not save? Why do You force me to look at injustice? Why do You tolerate wrongdoing? Your eyes are too pure to look on evil, and You cannot tolerate wrongdoing. So why do You tolerate those who are treacherous?" (Habakkuk 1: 2,3,13.)

And God tells Habakkuk (2:2-4) -- "Write down this vision, clearly inscribe it on tablets so one may easily read it. For the vision is yet for the appointed time; it testifies about the end and will not lie. Though it delays, wait for it, since it will certainly come and not be late."

God basically tells Habakkuk, "I know you don't see it, and I know you can't fully understand it, but I'm going to do something about this, and you just have to trust me that it will come at an appointed time."

And as for the little ones who suffer, Jesus Himself said that if anyone caused them to stumble, it would be "better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown into the sea." (Matt. 18:6.)

God doesn't miss or overlook anything, Gabe. And He knows you are questioning Him with an honest heart, which seems to be a lot more important to God than telling Him what we are told is best to say.

Don't give up. God knows. Waiting for that "appointed time" when God will set things right sure seems like a bummer, but as Christians, we have faith that we know that day will eventually come, which is probably one of the reasons why He allows things to happen as they do. If we didn't see all the wrong this world does, we wouldn't be able to see the difference when God sets it right.

I've also heard that this world "is the closest to heaven an unbeliever will ever know, and for the believer, this is the closest to hell they will ever get."

I know the waiting seems horrible, Gabe. But please don't give up, and may God bless you as you seek Him and wait.
Click to expand...
This is good stuff given to help a brother.
A couple of points on it. IMO there are 2 very important takeaways from Job.

The first you touched on, but it really ties into the alarming remark Gabe made about losing faith. Job didn't understand why this was happening to him. Job was in despair about what was happening. Job even was starting to get angry about what was happening. BUT he NEVER lost faith in God, even when satan had his wife tempt him to curse God and die.

The second vital takeaway is what he KNOWS to be THE cure for his condition. And it is what Gabe needs us to encourage him with:
Job 19:25-27 New International Version (NIV)
25 I know that my redeemer[a] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[b]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[c] in[d] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#26
Aug 13, 2014
27,183
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#26
Precisely.

I would add the story of the disciples in the boat in the storm. When they woke Jesus up, he did not castigate them for their lack of faith because they woke him up. You're supposed to ask Jesus to help you in the storm. He upbraided them for their lack of faith because they asked him did he not care that they were about to drown?

Being worried about a situation is normal. Wondering where God is is normal. Asking if God cares that you are in a storm... That is where faith fails.
 
Oncefallen

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
#27
Jan 15, 2011
6,061
3,404
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#27
In reality most of you (IMO) are trying to answer Gabe's question but you could say he's asking the wrong question. According to scripture man is evil at his core due to his sin nature, not that he is incapable of doing good but it isn't his nature. IMO the answer you are looking for would be best found by asking a different question.

Based on the presumption that man is inherently evil the proper question to be asked (IMO) would be how is it that more tragedies such as the Holocaust, Lenin's death camps, child and elder abuse, (continue down the long list of evil) don't happen more often? The answer is God's restraining hand. Albeit God doesn't stop all evil from happening (this crazy thing known as man's free will) he does prevent a lot. Unfortunately we live in a fallen world, nothing is as it was at the creation. If we didn't know the extent of man's depravity we would never be capable of understanding just how good and holy God is.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#29
Sep 4, 2013
30,663
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#29
I could give you the "old Soldier" answer I came up with a long time ago, But it is just that........and old Soldier answer, and some folks get their feelings hurt.or offended when I do........

Guess the easy way out of hurting/offending anyone is to simply tell then to read Job, Chapters 38 through 42. Pay particular attention to Gods disposition towards Job when He is speaking to him........ If you still don't get it, well.........

Let me say that when I realized what I was reading........I changed my way of speaking to God forever.........
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#30
Sep 4, 2013
30,663
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#30
One observation I will make (and I'm not the first to make/say it) is:


When something good happens, man gives themselves the credit

When something bad happens, man gives God the blame
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#31
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
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#31
Sweetmorningdew78 said:
I feel ashamed to question the Lord because I have no right not even a tiny right to do that to the creator of heaven,earth and mankind.
Click to expand...


1. Theological Answer - Rights:
The above answer is correct; we have no right to question God.

We have no right to question our own creator.
The clay has no right to question the potter.

We are created from the dust; we have no right to demand anything, least of all to demand answers from the one who created us.



2. Philosophical Answer - Ability:
This goes beyond our "right" to question God... as we actually have no rational "ability" to question God.

We are finite in time, space, intellect, and on top of all that, our minds are fallen and corrupted.
We actually have no ability to question what God allows, because we have no ability to even guess at how he might make his decisions.

We have no way, cognitively, to even begin to begin to guess at a guess ... we cannot even presume to conjecture at what enters the mind of God, and thus how he makes his decisions.



3. Emotional Answer - Trust:
We need to think beyond rights, and abilities, and return to the place of trusting God.

Ecclesiates 5:8 If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth;

A. This verse tells us, thousands of years ago, that there WILL be injustice, and there will violence, and there will be wickedness.
B. This verse tells us, that before we even see such things, we should fully be EXPECTING TO SEE THEM, and not be surprised.
C. This verse tells us, that when we see these things, God is not absent, or uncaring, or lacking the power to act... but rather, He is watching, and enacting his plans and judgement.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Why does God tell us over, and over, and over, to TRUST in Him?
Why?
Because things WILL happen that REQUIRE us to trust.
Things WILL happen that we don't understand.
Things WILL happen that shake us to our core.
Trust isn't an option in a fallen world.

God doesn't ask us to trust; he commands us to trust.

* Things will occur which we cannot understand, which will bend our minds, and bend our hearts, and bend our emotions... sometimes nearly to the point of breaking.
* Things will occur which we can ONLY navigate with trust in our creator... with faith.



Conclusion:
1. There are many scriptural answers to support the points above; they're easy to find.
2. Sometimes when we're upset, we don't want to hear God's answers. We're so hurt and upset, that it's hard to listen.
3. It is NORMAL to be upset, outraged, and even tormented, by the great depth and depravity of sin... this is the normal reaction for a beloved child of God.
4. Ultimately, as God's children, we MUST sink back into God's word, and hear His answers, and simply trust in Him.
5. The path of trusting God is the ONLY PATH in a fallen world.



....
 
J

Jitotg

New member
#32
Oct 30, 2018
23
8
3
#32
Gracie_14 said:
This reminds me of a pastor. This guy was full-blown on fire for God..his sermons were always spot on, he led many people to Christ... he was being used by God in many ways....that was when it was never the same again....

He happened to be on the couch flicking through TV and saw the devastation going on in Haiti...how the people were without homes, without clothes.... without anything for means of survival...and he started questioning.... How could God allow this? How could this tremendous suffering go on like this in His sight? He doubted and became bitter...why? Cause he questioned the Lord. He then created his own God in his image...he came up with all these false ideologies that God isn't who He says he is....you should see him now. Absolute apostate preacher....

We live in a broken world, Gabe... and God is up there, weeping for His children.... He longs to save them, but He gave us free will. Sin permeates the world...you gotta realize that.... :)
Click to expand...
**link removed**
 
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Jan7777777

Jan7777777

Active member
#34
Oct 19, 2018
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#34
well , he made a way out of this evil world.....his body beaten, he was innocent too.
.....If he stopped beating,...there would be someone that gets mad at him for not stopping rape....then someone else will get mad at him for not stopping mental abuse....someone else would get mad cause he didn't stop their child from dying...the list goes on.....IF HE STOPPED EVERYTHING THIS WOULD BE HEAVEN. and its not. so he let his body take the sin abuse, our Heavenly
Father could say, why should my son die for the sins of the world so it will be easy for them to get to Heaven.......right?
 
Sonflower

Sonflower

Senior Member
#36
Jan 30, 2016
850
147
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#36
Because we live in a broken world, and God loved us enough to send His son to save us, His concern isn't our comfort. How many people have been abused, enslaved, murdered, targeted, over all of history? Most people. God does what God does so that one soul won't be lost. He is acting out His perfect will the way that He does because He is looking to eternity. We look in the here and now. It doesn't make sense because we can't see the entire picture like He does.
 
Tia28

Tia28

Member
#37
Oct 20, 2018
40
23
8
#37
Read the book of Job 👍🏾
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#38
Aug 2, 2009
24,643
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#38
People, there is no comparison between Job who was the richest man in the land, a full-grown man, had perfect faith to God...... to an 8 yr old boy who died from abuse.

Also, I didn't start this thread because I was so shocked at the abuse. I wasn't that shocked. I've known for a long time that horrible things happen like that. Even things I can't speak of here. The real reason I started this thread was because I am/was dealing with abuse myself, but I'm not going to get into that so don't ask. And yes, I read the book of Job some time ago.
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#39
Aug 2, 2009
24,643
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#39
Also....

Job's suffering was a TEST and he came out of it more blessed than he started! And God protected Job by not allowing the devil to kill him! God did not protect that 8 yr old boy. God let them kill him.

Anyway....I had a feeling I would regret making this thread.... and I was right.
 
CharliRenee

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
#40
Nov 4, 2014
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#40
I have no idea, and I don't think any of us do. It made me cry just hearing about that blessed baby boy. It makes me tremble, knowing that kind of darkness falls on the lives of an innocent child. I will say that when we hear of this kind of stuff, we must remain diligent in our faith. To me, the more corrupt and evil and unfathomable heart wrenching it is, the more I see just how bad it gets without Him. Ever since Satan decided He and His Angels, don't need God, He has been a rabiddog with a bone saying who needs God, that we are good without Him. We see so much despicable suffering going on and that doesn't point to an indifferent God, not to me anyways. I'm convinced that child will for an eternity be tenderly healed and loved, that all innocent children get to be with Him forever, that He loves them very much, that He cares deeply, more than we can imagine. I think what we need to see that evil consequences does not equate a problem with God's character but in the lacking character of men without God.
 
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