Understanding Free Will (revisited)

Given the plethora of comments being posted that appear to denounce/deny free will, I think it necessary to revisit this Thread:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/understanding-free-will.87856/

I want to preface this Thread by saying that every person has a God given right to read Scripture for themselves, and through prayer, and guidance of the Holy Spirit (if they believe in the Holy Spirit) come to their understanding of Scripture. I will respect and defend their right to do so.

As well, no one person or group of people have perfect understanding of Scripture. At best, all any person, or group can do is state what they believe they have been led to believe. This does not make them the sole Authority on the interpretation of Scripture, nor, if others disagree, does it make them wrong. It simply reveals what they have gleaned from Scripture..........

People can agree or disagree......all have a God given right to come to the best understanding of Scripture that they can, and no other person has a right to denounce them for that understanding.

Now, yes, there are groups of people who are clearly believing/teaching another Gospel (as Paul said), but these people are not of the Christian Faith. And those of the Christian Faith are who I am speaking of.

What does “free will” mean?

Free will simply means that a person has the ability to choose.

Is “free will” Biblical?

Well, let us look at Scripture.

John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 .) That WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 .) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 .) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 .) He that BELIEVETH ON HIM is not condemned: BUT HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT is condemned already, BECAUSE HE HATH NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

(clearly there is a CHOICE THERE to be made…..to believe or to not believe)

What purpose would there be for God to create a world JUST to destroy part of that world? Why create a people just to condemn to death part of those people? Answer? He didn’t. Man brings condemnation and destruction upon himself through his denial of Jesus Christ. Through his unbelief. This is clearly stated in the 17 vs. above.

Consider what Paul said in 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Timothy……..2:1 .) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 .) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 .) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 .) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 .) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(note above……….”who would have ALL men to be saved” and “who gave himself a ransom for all)

Paul said: Romans 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 .) For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

(clearly there is a CHOICE THERE to be made…….to believe or to not believe)

To deny “free will” is to say that when Adam sinned by disobeying God, he was simply doing “the WILL OF GOD.” Why would God punish someone for doing His will? Does that make sense?

Ecclesiastes 7:29) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

(note that man “sought out” sinfulness…..must needs be man had a choice)

Josh McDowell had the following to say about creation, evil, and God’s love for us:

The Scriptures make it plain that God did not create the world in the state in which it is now, but evil came as a result of the selfishness of man. The Bible says that God is a God of love and He desired to create a person and eventually a race that would love Him. But genuine love cannot exist unless freely given -- through free choice God allows us to accept His love or to reject it.

This choice made the possibility of evil a reality. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they did not choose something God created, but, by their choice, they brought evil into the world. God is neither evil nor did He create evil. Man brought evil upon himself by selfishly choosing his own way apart from God’s way.

Consider these words from Deurtonomy……7:12) Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: 13 .) And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

(again, clearly a choice to be made……….)

CONTINUED.....................

God, from the beginning, had a plan to redeem mankind and within that plan were choices for man to make. Reward and consequences for man are based on the choices he makes. God desires fellowship with all mankind, not just certain people. Yet God knows that not all of mankind are going to make the right choice, to choose everlasting life……..by choosing to believe in Jesus the Christ. There would be those who would deny Christ.

(and this is FORKNOWING……..)

To believe in the Calvanist’s predestination is to accept that man is bound in chains of obedience to God. Those who were predestined to salvation had no ability to deny Christ, and those predestined to damnation had no ability to believe in Jesus the Christ regardless of their desire to do so.

David Bennett said: There is another emotion that shows that man was created with free will. That emotion is anger. The Old Testament says that God was angry with many people, even His own chosen people, the Israelites. Some He punished, some He relented from punishing at the pleading of people like Moses and others. If God preordained everything then why would He be angry if people and nations did exactly what they were designed by Him to do? God is sovereign and almighty therefore no one could oppose Him or disobey Him unless they were given free will.

Genesis 6:3-6 / Exodus 32:9-10 / Psalms 95:10 / Psalms 78/59 / Psalms 106:29 /
Hebrews 3:10 and 17-19……..and there are many, many more.

Consider what Bennett said here:

GOD’S GIFT, FAITH, EXCUSES, REPENTANCE AND RESPONSIBILTY
Gift: The Bible calls salvation a gift. A gift without acceptance is not a gift. If you force a gift on the receiver it is no longer a gift. In business law
to have a legally binding contract or a legal transaction you have to have an offer and an acceptance. Another element to a legally binding
transaction you must also have consideration, that is, something of value or a price has to be given. In the case of our salvation ,Jesus paid the price.

See Romans 5:15, and 6:23 / Ephesians 2:8 and John 12:48 and James 1:21.

How does “faith” fit in with “free will?”

In Romans 4 we’re told that it was by faith that Abraham was credited with being righteous. It is faith by which all are saved.
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” --Luke 7:50 NIV

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. --Acts 20:21
NIV

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
--Romans 3:22-25 NIV

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us…He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to
Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
--Galatians 3:13-14 NIV

Faith requires an action on our part, otherwise it is not faith. If faith was a pre-programmed (we were predestined to) action then it wouldn’t be faith.

CONTINUED..........


One of my favorite Scriptures concerning “free will” is:

Joshua 24:14) Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
15 .) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

(there can be no more clear example of man having a CHOICE)

And remember what Elijah said:

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Kings 18:21) And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

(clearly a CHOICE to be made)

Additional Scripture to consider……

Jeremiah 15:19) Therefore thus saith the LORD, IF thou return, then will I bring thee again, and thou shalt stand before me: and IF thou take forth the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth: let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them.

Ezekiel 33:11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Romans 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 .) That [ IF ] thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, [ AND ] shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 .) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 .) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

2[SUP]ND[/SUP] Peter 3:1) This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 .) That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 .) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 .) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 .) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 .) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 .) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 .) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9.) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Even with the existence of “free will,” God’s will remains sovereign, for God has a plan for mankind. This gift of “free will” is shown in that Jesus Christ paid the price for sin FOR ALL! And all who choose to believe will be saved.

Romans 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Great thread brother.

If there is no free will, nobody can be held accountable for their actions. If there was no ability to choose otherwise, you cannot be held accountable for choosing what you did.

CONTINUED............

1[SUP]st[/SUP] John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 .)And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

One FINAL ARGUMENT I would make is that for those who say “FREE WILL” is NOT IN THE BIBLE…………well……….read this:

Philemon 1:8) Wherefore, though I might be much bold in Christ to enjoin thee that which is convenient,
9 .) Yet for love's sake I rather beseech thee, being such an one as Paul the aged, and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ. 10 .) I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds: 11 .) Which in time past was to thee unprofitable, but now profitable to thee and to me: 12 .) Whom I have sent again: thou therefore receive him, that is, mine own bowels: 13 .) Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel: 14.) But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

(is that clear enough?)

IF predestination is truth, then WHY did Jesus have to die? To believe in predestination is to make of no value the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Jesus died for sins we willingly committed, not for sins God preordained we would commit. Had God preordained us to commit sins, then of what value is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Romans 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.7 .) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 .) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 .) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 .) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 .) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Titus 2:11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 .) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 .) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 .) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 .) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Acts 26:15) And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 .) But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 .) Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 .) To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Corinthians 9:16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! 17 .) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. 18 .) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19 .) For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 .) The same was in the beginning with God. 3 .) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 .) In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 .) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 .) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7.) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 .) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 .) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 .) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 .) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 .) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 .) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 .) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 .) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

While there is much that can be debated, thereare points from the original Reform movement that we should all agree on:

sola gratia- we are saved from sin and destruction by the grace of God alone -- never by human works, no matter how good they might
seem to be.

sola fide- our major responsibility toward God is to live through total faith alone in God and his “providence” or good care.

sola scriptura- all authoritative guidance for the Christian life comes from scripture alone -- not from human authority.

God punishes men for rejecting Jesus Christ. For rejecting His salvation plan established through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This plan provided ALL WHO WILL a way to receive eternal life. They can choose to believe, or to deny

Under predestination mankind is condemned to hell as God determines even though He could save them if He wished, and regardless of their desires to believe in Jesus Christ. In essence, God DELIBERATLY withholds salvation from some while giving it to others. He punishes those He predestined to damnation for not accepting what He did not offer to them. Does that make sense to anyone? Seriously

What about God’s Will?

Matthew 12:47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 .) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 .) And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 .) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother

Matthew 26:38) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 .) And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

In conclusion……….is “free will” Biblical?

YES………

The Bible says that God wants all people to repent, and come to the truth, and be saved.

God commands all people to repent.

Jesus lights every person that is born in this world, so all people have the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

The Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

There is none that does good, no, not one.

God is no respecter of persons.

God said what makes you to differ from another person.

There is no difference between the Jew and Gentile, and all Israel were God's chosen people.

God said if you think you are something when you are nothing you deceive yourself.

God wants all people to be saved, and all people are in the same boat to God, for He is no respecter of persons.

We have a choice in our salvation for God's kingdom is true love.

If we do not have a choice in our salvation then God's kingdom is not true love, for they have no choice but to accept truth seeing no other alternative, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject truth seeing no other alternative.

If they say we do not have free will, and do not have a choice, then their faith is not real, their love is not real, their repenting is not real, their confession of Christ is not real, their hope is not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

The truth is if we do not have a choice in our salvation then God would of not created the earth for us to dwell on, and allow the suffering and pain that can occur on the earth, and would not allow people to perish that were not saved.

God would of created humans in glorified bodies to dwell with Him, and would of cut out the middle man, the earth, and the suffering and pain that can occur on the earth, and the result would be the same as if they dwelled on earth.

What is the purpose for having the earth created if we do not have a choice, for the person did not do anything on their part for their salvation, so all their beliefs do not mean anything for it did not come from them but from God.

Created to be with God without the earth, dwelling on the earth then being with God, what is the difference, for there is no difference because they do not have a choice, so if they dwelled with God without the earth it would be the same result, and action on their part, as if they did dwell on the earth for they do not have a choice.

If we do not have a choice in our salvation then God would of not created the earth for it would serve no purpose.

But since we have a choice in our salvation then God did create the earth so we could dwell on it, and have hope, faith, and love, come from us, and have a choice to choose salvation, without having seen physical evidence of the spiritual world, for without faith it is impossible to please God, and that is the kind of people that God wants to dwell with Him.

For their faith is real, love is real, hope is real, repenting is real, confession of Christ is real, love of God is real.

Are you going to tell me that God the greatest of all beings, the greatest love, the greatest intelligence, is going to have people dwell with Him for all eternity but they are like robots only programmed to act a certain way seeing no other alternative.

That does not make sense, and we know we have a choice between good and evil, and what we choose to like and not like, for we can choose whether we want Crest toothpaste or Colgate toothpaste, whole milk or skim milk, who we want for a spouse, so we are not robots.

If we are like robots then all would be saved, for God would not condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth, for why God not choose them without their choice and then be mad at them for rejecting truth when they have no choice.

If you program your computer to say I love you is that true love, and if you program your computer to say I hate you would you be mad at your computer and smash it.

The fact that we dwell on earth testifies that God gave us a choice in our salvation.

It goes against the nature of God to say that He chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without our choice.

No person says Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

No person comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.

The Father reveals to us that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Many are called but few are chosen.

God chose us we did not choose Him.

Many people confess Jesus as Lord, but not all are saved, for many are called but few are chosen.

When God calls a person He will work in their life to get that person to the truth, and if they get to the door of truth they are the one that has to go through the door for we have a choice in our salvation of God's kingdom is love.

Which that truth is to realize that we have to abstain from sins led by the Spirit, and that us when a person is in the truth, but many do not push open the door of truth, which is why many are called but few chosen.

We have to make the choice to go through the door of truth, but we would of not gotten to the door of truth if God did not intervene in our life to get us to the door of truth, for no person says Jesus is the Lord, comes to the Son, and says Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, unless God called them and is working in their life.

So God chose us, we did not choose Him, for no one gets the door of truth unless God intervenes in our life, but when we get to the door of truth we have to make the choice to go through the door because God's kingdom is true love.

Many do not walk through that door which is why the Bible says they have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof, and Jesus said not everyone that says Lord, Lord, shall enter heaven.

They are the hypocrites who hold unto sin and think they are still right with God, which is they say they cannot abstain from sins then you know what that means, they are holding unto sin.

The wicked go astray from the womb

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding "?

"Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker-- An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' Or the thing you are making say, 'He has no hands '?

How can we be made in the Lord's image and after his likeness; and then have every thought and act controlled by being predestinated? If its all predestinated; imagine how blessed the Lord will be made by our forced praises from controlled hearts, not because we want to, but because we have no other choice. How can every sin be predestined, when scripture tells us to let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God for God cannot be tempted with evil and neither does he tempt any man, but rather, that each of us are tempted when we are drawn away of our own lusts and enticed.

Also:
The unforgivable sin is unforgivable both in this world and in the world to come. In the world to come, we'll be abiding in our resurrection bodies. We'll be abiding in a time where we'll know the Lord as fully as we are ourselves known of the Lord. If there were no way to reject the Lord in eternity, then there would be no choice available to us for being there; but by it being possible for us to commit the unforgiveable sin: we'll be in the new world by our own choice as long as we refrain from doing the unforgivable sin.
Maranatha!

Actually, its quite a modern availability, not any kind of right. Vast majority of Christians in history did not have the Bible we have or did not have one at home for personal reading...

Everyone became his own teacher now. All kinds of sectarians use Bible for daily reading and for persuading people for their heresies, not guarded by the catholic/general creeds of the church.

Which means that God holds every human being accountable for failure to obey the Gospel. And the underlying truth about accountability is that every person can either choose to respond to the Gospel with repentance and faith, or choose not respond.

When God created man, He gave mankind free will -- the ability to make moral (and spiritual) choices and face the consequences. Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, and suffered the consequences, which also affected all human beings.

According to your theology then (using such out of context and misapplied statements) I have no choice but to disagree with you.

The "wicked" in Proverbs 16:4 are simple persons who have chosen to be wicked, refusing God. God made people. God did not make them wicked (that is a distortion of Calvinistic thought; Calvin himself will rise in the judgment and condemn such foolishness).

God does not make "abomination/s" (context vs 4, of "wicked"), as it would be counter to His loving, Merciful and Just and Perfect character:


The wicked are able to "depart" from their ways if they choose God:


King David said under inspiration, that "wickedness" comes from the "wicked", not from God:


As for Pharaoh, God indeed, allowed in His mercy and justice, raise up Pharoah to be King of Egypt.
God allows even wicked men (who harden their own heart, by the circumstances God sends) to be in 'charge', to demonstrate His power and authority (see alo Nebuchadnezzar, Herod, etc). God did not make Pharoah rebellious. God sent the circumstances which brought the rebelliousness that was in Pharoah by his own choice. God sent the plagues that Pharaoh might repent. God knew the outcome in that Pharoah would not ever fully repent, but gave every opportunity to the man, even unto the last, so that he was withot excuse in the day of Judgment. If Pharoah hadn't pursued he would have lived longer.


See others, likewise, Zedekiah:


God would have "all men" to be "saved". Woe unto the man who limits that "all".


That included Pharaoh, 'Zedekiah', and even Judas.

No one man was to be lost, and all was provided for in Christ Jesus for every man:


Yet, men will be lost. They chose to be so. They clay marred itself, God did not mar it, but that it became marred, God chose to utilize it for His own glory (like as King Saul, Pharaoh, Judas, etc):

Isaiah 29:16 is in the context of Isaiah 29:15,

They choose to be like that, even though God sends light. When men reject Light, God withdraws that Light, and leaves men in darkness:


If the vessel choose to not become what the Potter originally intends (good) in HIs hands, then the Potter will use the marred vessel for destruction. God does not go about making marred vessels, and it is a slander, libel and blapshemous to His character.

I direct quoted scripture and made no comment...take it up with God pal.....and it is obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.....!

THIS THIS THIS

Everyone is their own teacher now. In fact its looked down upon often times to listen to others or read commentaries. Its not 'spiritual'.

The creeds are all wrong, my 21st century opinion is right. All the church fathers were catholic heretics, my opinion is right.

Having the Bible on everyone is a doubled-edged sword really. It produces a lot of division and more false doctrines because everyone comes up with their own wild ideas, back in the ignorant catholic days everyone had the same false doctrines Now there are MANY different ones.

We are all so short sighted, if not blind to the bigger picture. We all like to speak for and defend God as if He needs representation. The truth is we hold only very few facts that we have been given. With them we invent a God of our choosing. Not only the other religions but even the divisions in Christianity boast exclusivity on truth. Here are the facts. God created a world that was good. Then He created man to look after it and we screwed up. We were invented to serve God. If we made something and it didn’t work, we would toss it out, He didn’t. Agape, the word translated “love”, equates to a social responsibility. It’s an action, not a feeling. As much as we would all like to feel like we are the only person on the planet, we aren’t. We are part of a very large and complex machine. We are all expendable. As important as this time and all of our relationships are dear to us, it is all less than a brush stroke on the canvass of The Almighty’s masterpiece. No matter what we decide (free will) it makes little difference. As a collective, in the Body, with God at the Head, we can be utilized to impact the future. He doesn’t need to create evil to derive good. Without his goodness destruction just happens. It’s like decay doesn’t rot living flesh. We are saved, and we live because we are vines grafted into the living Branch, Christ. It is Oneness. We choose to be part.