Has the Founding Been Handled Accurately?

Greetings friends! Grab a line or two if you care to remark, would love to hear your take! Per the suggestion of members from my post in the “New Members Introduce Yourself” section, I’m transferring that here for further evaluation and insight. Please feel free to bring up as you are so inclined, Thanks and happy to be here !!

Here is the Bulk of that post, ,

Hello, I am Mike and that s/n of choice; PAC-fit is what I have come to happily understand after decades of making my way through variable denominational bias. My explanation of that doesn’t involve alienating, but gathering and solidifying as one which I hope has become customary to others as well, ,

, , Briefly, as told in 2-Timothy 3:16, “all scripture” is to be profited by, no matter what. By it, we gather as one at the foot of the cross and is incontrovertibly set under one Lord and one faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, otherwise known as the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilling the scriptures to the glory of God. Hallelujah!

How much could have been accomplished throughout His lifetime had He tarried extensively, but, as we know, it was not the Father’s will.

Our Preferred Wellbeing

“it is profitable for you that I should go away”

(John 16:7)

Obviously, He saw the best of options was to initiate the establishing of the flock He had begun by the high-price of giving Himself for it – the Church.

PAC, Our Most Emphatic Founding

Paul – the insightful founder (not one “whit” behind 2 Cor11:5)
Apollos – the disciplined founder (“well versed in the Scriptures” Acts 18:24)
Cephas – the factual founder (“I will build my church” Matthew 16:18)

“All is yours”

(1 Corinthians 3:22)

“The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise,
that they are vain. Therefore let no man glory in men.
For all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, ,”

For me, today’s expression of this founding isn’t held as verse-22 was intended to be received as “all”, but variable degrees of it depending on what carnal division is questioned.

, , for whereas there is among you, , divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

I think you can see the point “all scripture” is making here, that there is NO glory in Cephas only, or, the Pauline preferred ramblings, but the preferred description of “all” scripture of all PAC [related]!

Due to the necessities of recognition in the world, the traits of Apollos have been the adoptive-son of everyone it seems which have risen. From there, the “emphatic” version of some has wreaked havoc on 2 Timothy 3:16 to serve the specialized elite unity of their own – not the biblical “unity of the Spirit”.

As I move from forum to forum with my thoughts engrained from what I believe to be the Master’s call to “care for the flock”, I believe that the word once given on not being able to “endure sound doctrine” is the illegitimate grandson of Acts 20:29 “after my departure, , wolves”, which have caused insolent ripples which continue to this day, lest the knowledge of the truth shine His Spirit in us all.

Feel free to comment, Thank you and God bless!

What translation are you using, weird wording

geez

you are asking for intellectual thought on this one

don't hold your breath and be prepared for bizarre answers

I refrain on those principals alone

Ohh-well that’s perfectly okay, doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be very interested in hearing after you gave it some time to return comment!

Eww, could be an observant eye there, thanks! Because I did spot an error of grammar

Nowhere does the wording appear in 1 Corinthians 3:22 as I have it “All is yours”, but rather,

“Everything is yours”, CSB

“all things belong to you” NASB

“All are yours”, KJV, NKJV, ASV, BLB

Possibly others you know of are most welcome to highlight, please do. Still, with translations as they are, and their publishers going on record as stating an ever so slight percentage of deviation from their orig-sources, the compelling instruction we have in my thinking is to pay closer attention to the spirit of the letter rather than window of arrangement (though that is quite important),

“, , solemnly charge them in the presence of God
not to wrangle about words, which is useless
and leads to the ruin of the hearers.” - NASB

(2 Timothy 2:14)

But to your point, I tend to avail these for what appears as the most understandable for a given passage,

KJV, NKJV, NASB, ASV and on rare occasions the NIV though I totally object to their rogue omissions of which I personally counted 8-verses missing in the NT alone.

The Tarrying could be still for he did say he will accompany them.

What do you think the phrase "wrangle with words" mean? I am not familiar with it. Does it mean to change the meaning by adding another meaning which then would substract from the other making it to no effect? Sort of like plagiarism, stealing authorship?

It was profitable (and still is) because of the Holy Spirit's role in our lives, not "the best option" being the Church, but the Spirit's present activity in our lives as the Comforter, and teacher. The Holy Spirit is a person, and as a person, He is with us (we are His temple). Consider for how long He resides within believers, and yet, too often, is neglected (only seen as a power or force, instead of a person with emotions, such that He can be grieved). The apostles and disciples were led of the Spirit, even given direction on where to go and not go. He was actively present in their lives, leading them into the good works that the Lord has prepared beforehand.

Jesus knew that it would be profitable for multiple reasons for Him to go, and the verse primarily points to the Comforter (the Holy Spirit).

This.

“, , solemnly charge them in the presence of God
not to wrangle about words, which is useless
and leads to the ruin of the hearers.” - NASB

2 Timothy 2:14

Good question! Well, there are other clues to direct us further.

reject foolish and ignorant speculation - 2 Timothy 2:23

avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law - Titus 3:9

At first appearance, seems a little daunting doesn’t it, knowing full well that Paul himself had a great many exhortations and furthermore, look at our many fine theologians and translators handling of this verse. I’m being fairly honest here, they tend to scramble!

What do I think it means? Look at the very delicate push for the establishment of words by both Paul and Jesus,

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established

in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1, Matthew 18:16

That one mention in 2 Cor 12:20 when he says to avoid “, , lest there be debates”,

For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults

Then where does that leave room for discussion for all our “corrections” 2Tim 3:16 to be established? Is he not speaking about our condition of being able to push for the establishing rather than the contemplation of insight? For here is “debate” again, with a condition Apollos is exhibiting,

For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 18:28 - Apollos in Achaia

So I guess in short, The Lord wants us to allow the winnowing to instruct us to ramp-up "proof" securely with knowledge yes and understanding, but also with compassion with those who offer that which we take exception to and discuss with those known to have the benchmark of maturity.

All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.

Philippians 3:15

Then that wrangling spoken of is laid to rest so we can proceed with all the might needed,

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

2 Timothy 4:2

Woe – Gentlemen – nice! If my perceptions are right, , The direction is established here! The pendulum is beginning to be restored here! Ohh-how much we need to get behind that clarion-call, ,

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:3

For we know it wasn’t long after till the Apostle’s admonition; “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock”, that the wolves did incorrectly scatter with a call of their own, ,

If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith?

- The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]

This is the first swipe I know of taken to diminish Paul’s “whit” that Peter had to share. Lest anyone lay in doubt, please note, the “whit” wasn’t some coddled ambition of Paul the man, no! What they have failed to see was verse-5 of 2 Corinthians 11 was given by the Spirit. To allow the mind of the flesh to diminish it as a man’s perspective has diminished the very word given by the Spirit - carnally!

So what happened when they isolated Peter? Was it not a riotous measure to nullify Cephas’ rock status that Peter otherwise now holds the keys to the Spirit to bind unity to himself? No one should wonder why they call all other forms of Christianity “separated brethren”.

Neither should we wonder that this should only be to showcase what many denominations have taken hold of, to give the world a look at Christianity the Lord never intended, ,

By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.

John 13:35 BSB

Thanks for the reply. If I could add .

Debating in its self is not evil .

The wrangling again seems to mean more of adding new meaning to the a word (singular) and therefore violate the law of interpretation in found in Deuteronomy 4:2 in respect to one word. Change the meaning of one word change the intent of the author.

Like today the word marriage as to its meaning has been changed to mean whatever a person chooses (same sex marriage) It destroys the picture of Christ and his bride the church the two becoming one as moral decline picks speed

Note ….(purple in parenthesis) my added opinion or private interpretation as a personal commentary

Ye shall not add unto the word (singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, (singular)that ye may keep the commandments (plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.Deuteronomy 4:2 (KJV)

It is a different kind of warning then the one at the end of the book of prophecy the Bible( Revelation 22) which is in respect to the perfect or whole book as in all the words and not just word singular is many time confused with the warning in Deuteronomy .

The kind of debating that the disciples used and could not cast out the lying spirits (demons) called a fast (offering the gospel the bread of life ) would be with wicked hands used to represent the will of men. therefore making it about the flesh seen and not the unseen spirit of faith.

In Isaiah 58 the Holy Spirit reveals striking with fist of wickedness as the wrong kind of debate, is not the kind of fast that comes from hearing God on high, the gospel .

Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness,(the work of the gospel, the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against) to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?(the work of the gospel, the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against)Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry,( the bread of the daily will of God) and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? (those spiritually bankrupt without God in this world) when thou seest the naked, (not covered with the righteousness of Christ the glory of God) that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? (our own family)Isaiah 58

One more example in respect to the law of interpretation found in Deuteronomy 4 in respect to the importance of one word can make the difference in respect to the whole or perfect.

Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the Lord said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the Lord. Then the Lord put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in "thy mouth".See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant. Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it. (or I am watching it to make sure you do not add to it or substract from it Jerimiah 1:4-12

The rod of a almond tree is a sign against those who do rebel against his word. it is used that way through the word of God.

Wrangle: argue; have a long and complicated dispute.

Respectfully, I think you're focusing far to much on the individuals, which is exactly what Paul was teaching against.

Paul, Apollos and Cephas aren't the foundation. They are merely three prominent names among many who were used by God to establish the church... to "lay the foundation" by preaching the gospel, establishing local churches, teaching the whole counsel of God and appointing elders, so that the church could be self-sustaining and grow from then on.

Thanks! Surely, knowing the narrative of my OP-post, and what it is we hope to avoid from our thousands of specific denominational identities and dozens of generalized identities and among those a assortment of overly shameful reasonings, we have only ourselves to thank for this streaming appraisal the world holds,

“are ye not carnal, and walk as men”

Due to those many sects we ‘gladly’ show the world the reverse-recognition of those distant brothers wherever they may be found, , are you up to the task of reproving my counterweight “focus”? After all, I did consider it beforehand and didn’t think it was too foolhardy of me to secure the inscription for the body of Christ, saying,

“all things are yours; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas”

Therefore, if my focus is seen excessive, then may the buffeting come till I have it correctly in-hand viewed as P.A.C. being mine as stated.

But, lest you were concentrating on another obvious, and how I might be naïve to think that every-last mention of praise to Christ Jesus is to be counted, no. There are some egregious matters that need to be “put away” from the number.

Sorry everyone, if I come-off as a little too coarse, it is I think the nature of just such a topic.

So, the topic stands if you will for a “new-lump” as described.

Well okay then, guess she is ready for the archives. I’ll close with this so the thread can step-aside and I can move about as time permits to other post.

A last thought I like to drag into view before doing so. It has to do with something Paul said concerning our most fundamental stance expressive to the un-saved world at-large and the effectiveness God would apportion to our efforts.

You know the drill, ,

I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

(1 Corinthians 9:22)

Looking back over the bulk of response concerning this thread, I assuming most are confident they ‘don’t need’ the type of unity of the Spirit I have detailed here to achieve verse-22. The reasons are likely as numerous as the stars of the sky. I also suspect most of us would rather trust the Father’s enabling to carry us through for the benefit for others. While that is true, does any here know where I am going with this reasoning yet as it pertains to this thread? In other words, does that enabling come up short by our spiritual makeup of choice?

I find it interesting that the Apostle would mention only these three individuals, don’t you? For notice; to any mix of varying degrees then, most all of us are among those the Apostle described,

“I am of” (1 Cor 3:3), ,

Paul – insightful
Apollos – disciplined
Cephas - factual

As in the case of the aforementioned Cephas-only Catholic then that I brought up from the 2nd-century, as an example, could they not fill it in for themselves?,

I have become all Cephas things to all men, so that I may by all Cephas means save some.

(1 Corinthians 9:22)

This possibly, is something to think about with some degree of merit. But I appreciate you time for commenting of which all has been enjoyable. Thanks!

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The saints being added to the Church is like a building where they are built upon each other.

Paul, Apollos, and Peter, are not founders, but only Jesus is the founder, and the chief cornerstone of the building.

If there is no other foundation that can by laid but by Jesus Christ how is anyone a founder but Him, for what can they lay down as a foundation to be a founder if it all comes from Jesus Christ.

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church is not actually built on Peter, for Jesus Christ is the foundation, and the chief cornerstone.

This means that Peter was the first person added to the Church after the man Christ Jesus, and then whoever in order of being saved, like the 120 at the day of Pentecost., and then the people that were saved after Peter preached the first message, and all those after that.

Peter is not the first Pope, and Apollos has nothing to do with the game changers in history, which is identified when God changed their name.

Abram changed to Abraham, obeyed God, promise land given to him, and the father of many nations, and we are saved by the same faith as him.

Jacob changed to Israel, got the nation of Israel going.

Peter changed to Cephas, preached the first message to get the Church going, sent to the Jews.

Saul changed to Paul, sent to the Gentiles to get the ball rolling there.

Jesus the biggest game changer that did not need a new name for He is perfect as God, and as the man Christ Jesus.

The Bible says we need not that any man teach us, but the Spirit shall teach us, and guide us in to all truth, and show us things to come.

Now we need preachers, but some people put too much stock in people exalting them above what they are and that is a human like anybody else, which God said what makes you to differ from another person, and if a person thinks they are something when they are nothing, they deceive themselves.

Paul said he is the least of the saints.

The Catholic Church likes to put some people on a pedestal as somebody important above other people.

Jesus said do not exalt Mary, and anybody that does the will of the Father is Jesus' mother, brethren, and sisters, and anybody that hears the word of God and does it is as blessed as Mary.

They call the Pope Holy Father, but Jesus said call no man on earth father in a spiritual sense, and a man said to Jesus good Master, and He said why call Me good there is only one good, and that is God, which the man Christ Jesus was giving glory to God for why He did good.

I had to read your post a couple of times to extract your message from the “zeal”. It reminds me of someone who sees something hilarious on YouTube. Then they can’t wait to show everybody because it’s the funniest thing they’ve ever seen. When they show other people the response may be a giggle or even a laugh but they aren’t as effected as the sharer. Same as the latest health fad...everything is gluten intolerance...Paleo diet...whatever.

There may have been some truth to what you are saying about applying scripture as a whole, and not basing your theology on excerpts. PAC-fit however doesn’t even capsulate the verse you sited. In completion; “...or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all things are yours, and ye are Christ’s and Christ is God’s.”

The message delivered by your P(AC), is that we are all part of a larger mechanism, or brush strokes of a grand masterpiece.

The vanity that is the “wisdom of men” isn’t knowledge per se, but rather the arrogance that accompanies it. When somebody thinks they are wisest, then everyone becomes foolish. The wise man becomes unteachable. That is why proverbs gives high esteem to knowledge and wisdom, but Christ raised up the child and told people to be more like them. Children haven’t solidified their opinions yet. I think that happens during adolescence. They are teachable.

Blessings, I commend your reading of Scripture.

Too Much?

Right! We know, “our more presentable members have no need of it.”?

(1 Corinthians 12:24)

Again, I hope my point isn't overshot, thinking my focus is on man, or thereby perceiving me as “are ye not carnal, and walk as men”? It isn’t.

Unlike those who overshoot thinking Caphas alone ‘holds the keys to the kingdom’ actually shoot themselves in the foot – spiritually profiting little.

So where is my focus?, , one short verse.

I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Acts 20:27

Whether it be biblical precept, tradition or ensample, the care all of which laid upon the Lord, knows I will it to the influential power of the Holy Spirit.