RED HEIFER CALF BORN LAST WEEK IN ISRAEL!!

No rapture? There is no doubt a rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 whatever you wish to call it. Rapture, catching away of the church. Its there:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I looked it up on biblehub and all translations agree. There is a rapture. It says CAUGHT UP in the clouds. If that's not a rapture or catching up, I don't know what else it can be.

Do you want to explain that first point? NO RAPTURE?

In Greek it says caught up in the aere. That is the atmosphere, not clouds or heaven. If it said ouranos, that could mean heaven. No where does it say the saints are going anywhere.

So tell me where the word “rapture” is in the Bible? I can’t find it anywhere! Harpazio is a verb, rapture is a noun. Even if you want to include 1 Thess. 4:17, that is only one example. Sorry, bad hermeneutics to make a doctrine out of one verse.

As for the verses in the gospels about one taken, one not- read them carefully. Sometimes the saved person is taken, sometimes it is the unsaved person. Sorry, I’m on my phone, no access to the exact verses.

If this doctrine was so important, because dispensationalism rests on it, why wouldn’t it be all over the Bible? Like the cross is, in the doctrine of the atonement? Or salvation by grace through faith, in soteriology?

The doctrine is important and it was revealed as a MYSTERY to Paul. "For I tell you a mystery".

The word rapture is in the bible in 1 thessalonians 4:17, if you insist on being literal lets call it "caught up". We are caught up into the atmosphere as you said, is that not a rapture? People are going somewhere!

If you do not believe in being caught up (1 thessalonians 4:17???) what do you suggest happens to the believers who are alive when Jesus returns? Do they just remain in the flesh? Of course not.
The resurrection is for the people who are already dead, but those who are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up and changed from corruptible to incorruptible in a MOMENT in a TWINKLING OF AN EYE. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Are you just so against dispensationalism that you must throw away the rapture altogether? Do you know that not all people believe in the PRE-TRIB rapture. The historical premills believe the rapture occurs post-trib.

You dont need to throw out or nullify a bible verse just because you dont like dispensationalism. I have never even heard someone suggest there is no catching away of any kind, even amillennial scholars of the 1800s believed in it. Check out the commentaries. This is just odd.

No, amillennials do not believe in a rapture! I am one!

I am not throwing out any verses, I am saying what has been taught by Darby and his successors since the 1800’s is a bad interpretation of 1 Thess 4:17! No where is the word “away” used in the Greek! We may all stand up, or jump up, but we go no where. In fact, the promise for our incorruptible bodies will happen on earth. Why would God take a bunch of people to heaven with corruptible bodies? What you are saying makes no sense!

Jesus is returning once! And we will be changed, in a twinkling if an eye. Nothing about a secret rapture, or going to heaven with corrupted bodies. Enough of this fantasy eschatology!

4. After the resurrection, believers who are then still alive shall suddenly be transformed and glorified. The basis for this teaching is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed” (NIV).

5. The “rapture” of all believers now takes place. Believers who have just been raised from the dead, together with living believers who have just been transformed, are now caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:17). That there will be such a “rapture” the Bible clearly teaches. But I have put the word rapture between quotation marks in order to distinguish the amillennial conception of the rapture from the dispensationalist view. Dispensationalists teach that after the rapture the entire church will be taken up to heaven for a period of seven years while those still on earth are undergoing the great tribulation.

Here is proof from an AMILLENNIAL Hoekema who has written books on the subject, and even he believes in the rapture.:



Now would be high time to admit you were misrepresenting my view and even the amillennial view.
He says just what the bible says: we are caught up in the clouds.

Dont know why you deny this FACT. I've never seen ANYONE deny the rapture, no matter what eschatology they hold to. EVER. Thats like denying a plain verse that says Jesus went to Galilee or something. "NOPE HE DIDNT!" Never seen such a thing. Mindblown.

In Greek it says caught up in the aere. That is the atmosphere, not clouds or heaven.

is anyone actually opposed to cattle?

down with cows?

LOL, it's the chickens counter Chic-fil-a campaign.

Had the council NOT voted on every Book within the Old Testament, it would look more like the Torah.

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Α΄ 4:17 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα νεφέλαι /[ B] εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.

νεφέλη, νεφέλης, ἡ (νέφος) (from Homer down), the Sept. especially for עָנָן, but also for עָב and שַׁחַק; a cloud

Here is proof from an AMILLENNIAL Hoekema who has written books on the subject, and even he believes in the rapture.:



Now would be high time to admit you were misrepresenting my view and even the amillennial view.
He says just what the bible says: we are caught up in the clouds.

Dont know why you deny this FACT. I've never seen ANYONE deny the rapture, no matter what eschatology they hold to. EVER. Thats like denying a plain verse that says Jesus went to Galilee or something. "NOPE HE DIDNT!" Never seen such a thing. Mindblown.

From the GREEK CLV translation BIBLE:

1 Thes 4:17

17 Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."

Not all Amills believe exactly the same thing. We are not uniform in our beliefs. I have read Hoekema, in fact, I have all three of his books. Amills are thinkers, generally, and so we don't just believe what we are told, but rather, we read the Bible and study it.

As for you, dispensationalism was started in the 18th century with Darby and was popularized by Scofield's Bible. Before that time, no one anywhere believe in this rapture. The reason, being, it was not in the Bible.

Your so-called "Plain meaning" is really something you have come to believe after hearing preachers preach on it, and reading dispensational books. There is no way you would ever come up with such a ridiculous doctrine if you just used the Bible.

In fact, the first 15 years I was a Christian I went to dispensational churches, and didn't understand how the verses offered could possibly support the Rapture. I kept quiet, especially when I heard people being called "heretics" who did not agree with dispensationalism.

Lucky me, I got educated, read the Greek, studied all FOUR eschatological views, read widely,, until I was satisfied that there was no millennium, let alone this rapture. Anthony Hoekema is an excellent scholar, but I do not agree with him using the term "Rapture" to describe what he is speaking of. I do agree with him, but I disagree with the term he uses.

Amazing how you had to go ad hominium on me Just discuss the Scriptures and you would be a lot farther ahead than insulting my education. I believe what I believe, because that is what the Bible says. Again, one verse with haparizo in it, does not a doctrine make.

Not all Amills believe exactly the same thing. We are not uniform in our beliefs. I have read Hoekema, in fact, I have all three of his books. Amills are thinkers, generally, and so we don't just believe what we are told, but rather, we read the Bible and study it.

As for you, dispensationalism was started in the 18th century with Darby and was popularized by Scofield's Bible. Before that time, no one anywhere believe in this rapture. The reason, being, it was not in the Bible.

Your so-called "Plain meaning" is really something you have come to believe after hearing preachers preach on it, and reading dispensational books. There is no way you would ever come up with such a ridiculous doctrine if you just used the Bible.

In fact, the first 15 years I was a Christian I went to dispensational churches, and didn't understand how the verses offered could possibly support the Rapture. I kept quiet, especially when I heard people being called "heretics" who did not agree with dispensationalism.

Lucky me, I got educated, read the Greek, studied all FOUR eschatological views, read widely,, until I was satisfied that there was no millennium, let alone this rapture. Anthony Hoekema is an excellent scholar, but I do not agree with him using the term "Rapture" to describe what he is speaking of. I do agree with him, but I disagree with the term he uses.

Amazing how you had to go ad hominium on me Just discuss the Scriptures and you would be a lot farther ahead than insulting my education. I believe what I believe, because that is what the Bible says. Again, one verse with haparizo in it, does not a doctrine make.

And once again: I am NOT a dispensationalist! They believe only Romans to Philemon is for the church, I believe the words of Jesus are of utmost importance!