Is Christmas paganism?

You set up false dichotomy in what you say.

oh really? how about believing half the NT and some of the OT? what do you call that?

Everybody has what they believe is right, what is right lines up with the Scripture. In this case, Christmas, by every measurement is pagan in origins, implementation and practice. Now this is why I say you are posing a false dichotomy, if you can show me in the word where Christmas is then I will repent, if you can not it seems you have no Scripture to stand on but only tradition.

ah but we are not really just talking about Christmas here. tell you what...if you can show me where we are supposed to keep some of the OT law and accept some of the NT, but add to it with Sabbath keeping etc, I will show you a leprechaun sitting on his pot of gold...never mind Christmas and I don't even believe in 'em

if you do repent of something, make sure God has led you to do so by His Spirit.

You are saying I/m wrong but according to the Messiah out doctrine should be based in the ENTIRE word:

Mat 4:4, “But He answering, said, “It has been written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of יהוה.” (Deut 8:3)

and also He says to do and promote the Law:

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

and they are not destroyed. you just do not seem able to comprehend that they are completely fulfilled in Christ, our High Priest.
you think you need an OT priest. they are all dead. the law was given for a foreshadow of the new covenant...all is fulfilled.

you cannot keep the law. if you can, then why did Jesus come to this earth to die for our sins? you speak often of the law...and I do not mean just this thread...I mean every thread you post in...but not very much about Jesus. why is that?

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

meaning in relation to the op what exactly? just tossing a verse out here and there is meaningless taken out of context


So the options are what? If I sin once I have to turn completely away from the Most High's Instructions? WIthout the Law there is no sin. Since we can sin the Law remains, just as Yahshua said. Do not steal, do not covet, have none before YHWH, etc. are good things.

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

well this is a whole nother argument here. you create your ideal of what a believer should believe...half the old some of the new....and then decide a believer who trusts only in Christ must be in sin.

who said anything about thinking we do not sin? not me

you try to use scripture for your own purpose. sin, the actual meaning of the word, is 'missing the mark' we cannot hit the mark. God does not accept our efforts as propitiation for our sins. It is an insult to God to constantly attempt to create our own righteousness by fooling ourselves in trying to 'keep' the law.

what John is actually saying is that thanks be to God, there is an answer to our sin problem. God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we admit to them and ask forgiveness and we can only approach God this way, through the blood of Christ



I donlt even believe that myself? Wow, you must be a real Ms. Cleo... No actually I do beleive that because of the journey I have been on learning Yah and His truth. People I met when I didn;t know the word well that knew it better than I did, seeing how hard they studied and and sought YHWH and His ways... I can look and see the change in myself, I can look and see the change in others. Doctrine aside the longer someone seeks Yah the more they should grow in His ways, this is the journey. We are all in different places..

no you do not believe that little anecdote you wrote about how we are all in different places yada yada yad

THIS:
your post # 23

is what you believe.

1. YOU know who heart is truly changed because they will not have anything to do with Christmas because YOU say it is pagan

2. YOU honestly do not think many people care about these things

3. YOU think most want a religion that makes them happy as opposed to what God wants

4. YOU seem to think God wants us miserable, according to #3 above, even though His word says His joy is our STRENGTH

5. YOU seem to want to define who seeks God which comes full circle back to # 1

It's odd how you can quote Luke 16:16 and ignore 16:17.:, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Luke 16:16-17, "The Law and the Prophets were until John, since that time the Kingdom of YHWH is preached, and every man is pressed to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

That means the Law is not gone, the Law and prophets were preached up until Yahshua came, as nothing has been added to them since, but He said the earth will pass before the Law does...

and your accusations about "still in the OT" is nonsense, I take the entire word, just posted a quote about live by the entire ward and your implying to ignore half of it...

Well this is the NT, does quoting this make me or make Yahshua/Jesus a bad bad pharisee legalisim layer, etc, etc, etc?

Revelation 22:11-15, “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart. And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work. “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city. But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.”

SO is this implying I do not? Do you know anyone who has ever posted and promoted Deut 18, Acts 3, and Acts 7 more than me on this site? and stood by what it says?

Acts 7:37-38, “This is the Mosheh who said to the children of Yisra’yl, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear.’ This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words to give to us.”

John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, “I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it.”

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John/Yahanan 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

Here are some threadsI have made in the past few months... I can go back 6 years to my original account I am locked out of not banned, and I have threads dedicated to the Messiah;s teachings and how important they are...

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/are-the-words-of-the-messiah-above-all-else.165791/

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/messiah-as-the-branch.166259/

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-is-the-yoke-of-messiah.178880/

Oh wow you found a random MESSAGE BOARD that gives theories... wow who needs to actually study history when there are message boards. Are you even seeking truth or just what fits what you alrady want?

The Last Two Million Years by The Reader’s Digest Association, page 215
“Pagan rites absorbed By a stroke of tactical genius the Church, while intolerant of pagan beliefs, was able to harness the powerful emotions generated by pagan worship. Often, churches were sited where temples had stood before, and many heathen festivals were added to the Christian calendar. Easter, for instance, a time of sacrifice and rebirth in the Christian year, takes its name from the Norse goddess Eostre, in whose honor rites were held every spring. She in turn was simply a northern version of the Phoenician earth-mother Astarte, goddess of fertility. Easter eggs continue an age-old tradition in which the egg is a symbol of birth; and cakes which were eaten to mark the festivals of Astarte and Eostre were the direct ancestors of our hot-cross buns.”

Collier’s Encyclopedia, Volume 3, page 97
ASTARTE [æsta’rti], the Phoenician goddess of fertility and erotic love. The Greek name, ‘‘Astarte’’ was derived from Semitic, ‘‘Ishtar,’’ ‘‘Ashtoreth.’’ Astarte was regarded in Classical antiquity as a moon goddess, perhaps in confusion with some other Semitic deity. In accordance with the literary traditions of the Greco-Romans, Astarte was identified with Selene and Artemis, and more often with Aphrodite. Among the Canaanites, Astarte, like her peer Anath, performed a major function as goddess of fertility. Egyptian iconography, however, portrayed Astarte in her role as a warlike goddess massacring mankind, young and old. She is represented on plaques (dated 1700-1100 b.c.) as naked, in striking contrast to the modestly garbed Egyptian goddesses. Edward J. Jurji

From The Two Babylons by Hislop, pages 20-22
The Babylonians in their popular religion, supremely worshiped a Goddess Mother, and a Son, who was represented in pictures and in images as an infant or child in his mother’s arms (Figs. 5 and 6). From Babylon, this worship of the Mother and the Child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, the Mother and the Child were worshiped under the names of Isis and Osiris.* In India, even to this day, as Isi and Iswara; * in asia, as Cybele and Deoius;§ in Pagan Rome, as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter, the boy;11 in Greece, as Ceres, the Great Mother, with the babe at her breast,¶ or as Irene, the goddess of Peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms; ** and even in Thibet, in China, and Japan, the Jesuit missionaries were astonished to find the counterpart of Madonna ** and her child as devoutly worshiped as in Papal Rome itself; Shing Moo, the Holy Mother in China, being represented with a child in her arms, and a glory around her, exactly as if a Roman Catholic artist had been employed to set her up.* The original of that mother, so widely worshiped, there is reason to believe, was Semiramis, * already referred to, who, it is well known, was worshiped by the Babylonians, * and other eastern nations, § and that under the name of Rhea, ||the great goddess “Mother.” It was from the son, however, that she derived all her glory and her claims to deification. That son, though represented as a child in his mother’s arms, was a person of great stature and immense bodily powers, as well as most fascinating manners. In Scripture he is referred to (Ezek. viii. 14) under the name of Tammuz, but he is commonly known among classical writers under the name of Bacchus, that is, ‘‘The lamented One.’’ ¶ To the ordinary reader the name of Bacchus suggests nothing more than revelry and drunkenness, but it is now well known, that amid all the abominations that attended his orgies, their grand design was professedly ‘‘the purification of souls,’’ * and that from the guilt and defilement of sin. This lamented one, exhibited and adored as a little child in his mother’s arms, seems, in point of fact, to have been the husband of Semiramis, whose name, Ninus, by which he is commonly known in classical history, literally signified ‘‘The Son,’’* as Semiramis, the wife, was worshiped as Rhea, whose grand distinguishing character was that of the great goddess ‘‘Mother,’’* the conjunction with her of her husband, under the name of Ninus, or ‘‘The Son,’’ was sufficient to originate the peculiar worship of the ‘‘Mother and Son,’’ so extensively diffused among the nations of antiquity; and this, no doubt, is the explanation of the fact which has so much puzzled the inquirers into ancient history, that Ninus is sometimes called the husband, and sometimes the son of Semiramis.§ This also accounts for the origin of the very same confusion of relationship between Isis and Osiris, the mother and child of the Egyptians; for as Bunsen shows, Osiris was represented in Egypt as at once the son and husband of his mother; and actually bore, as one of his titles of dignity and honor, the name ‘‘Husband of the Mother.’’|| The Babylonian worship of the Great Mother spread throughout the known world. This Mother Goddess was known by different names, but the form of her religion has not transformed since antiquity...

Eggs have absolutely nothing to do with the resurrection of the Messiah (three days and three nights after He was placed in the grave),but the egg was a sacred symbol to the Babylonians. An egg of wondrous size fell from heaven into the Euphrates River; from this marvelous egg the Goddess Astarte (Easter) was hatched. From the land of Babylon, humanity was scattered to the various parts of the earth. These religious people took with them the symbol of the mystic sacred egg. Each pagan nation had its own representation of this wonder. The Greeks had their sacred egg of Heliopolis, and the Typhon’s Egg.

From The Two Babylons, by Hislop on page 109
From Egypt these sacred eggs can be distinctly traced to the banks of the Euphrates. The classic poets are full of the fable of the mystic egg of the Babylonians; and thus its tale is told by Hyginus, the Egyptian, the learned keeper of the Palatine library at Rome, in the time of Augustus, who was skilled in all the wisdom of his native country: ‘‘An egg of wondrous size is said to have fallen from heaven into the river Euphrates. The fishes rolled it to the bank, where the doves having settled upon it, hatched it, and out came Venus, who afterwards was called the Syrian Goddess’’*—that is, Astarte. Hence the egg became one of the symbols of Astarte or Easter; and accordingly, in Cyprus, one of the chosen seats of the worship of Venus, or Astarte, the egg of wondrous size was represented on a grand scale. (See Fig. 32) § The Roman Catholic Church now has their own Official Representation of Ishtar—the Virgin Mother, who stands upon the top of this Sacred Egg of Heliopolis, with the Serpent Typhon at her feet.

Oh wow you found a random MESSAGE BOARD that gives theories... wow who needs to actually study history when there are message boards. Are you even seeking truth or just what fits what you alrady want?

One of the main problems with Christmas is that the Bible does not say when he was born; but one fact is clear, Jesus was not born in December.

Consider the weather conditions at that time of the year in Bethlehem, where Jesus was born. The Jewish month of Chislev (corresponding to November/December) was a month with cold and rainy weather. The month after that was Tebeth (December/January). It saw the lowest temperatures of the year, with occasional snows in the highlands.

The Bible writer Ezra shows that Chislev was indeed a month known for cold and rainy weather. After stating that a crowd had gathered in Jerusalem “in the ninth month [Chislev], on the 20th day of the month,” Ezra reports that people were “shivering . . . because of the heavy rain.” Concerning weather conditions at that time of the year, the congregated people themselves said: “It is the rainy season. It is not possible to stand outside.” (Ezra 10:9, 13; Jeremiah 36:22) No wonder shepherds living in that part of the world made sure that they and their flocks were no longer out of doors at night when December came around!

The Bible reports, however, that shepherds were in the fields tending their flocks on the night of Jesus’ birth. In fact, the Bible writer Luke shows that at that time, shepherds were “living out of doors and keeping watch in the night over their flocks” near Bethlehem. (Luke 2:8-12) Notice that the shepherds were actually living out of doors, not just strolling outside during the day. They had their flocks in the fields at night. Does that description of outdoor living fit the chilly and rainy weather conditions of Bethlehem in December? No, it does not. So the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ birth indicate that he was not born in December.
God’s Word tells us precisely when Jesus died, but it gives little direct indication as to when he was born. This brings to mind King Solomon’s words: “A good name is better than good oil, and the day of death is better than the day of birth.” (Ecclesiastes 7:1) It is not surprising, then, that the Bible provides many details about Jesus’ ministry and death but few details about the time of his birth.

really not feeling the love here....

I only used one message board in my samples of theories that are put forth as anyone who is actually literate can see

just one...so you can quit the fake shock

The Last Two Million Years by The Reader’s Digest Association, page 215
“Pagan rites absorbed By a stroke of tactical genius the Church, while intolerant of pagan beliefs, was able to harness the powerful emotions generated by pagan worship. Often, churches were sited where temples had stood before, and many heathen festivals were added to the Christian calendar. Easter, for instance, a time of sacrifice and rebirth in the Christian year, takes its name from the Norse goddess Eostre, in whose honor rites were held every spring. She in turn was simply a northern version of the Phoenician earth-mother Astarte, goddess of fertility. Easter eggs continue an age-old tradition in which the egg is a symbol of birth; and cakes which were eaten to mark the festivals of Astarte and Eostre were the direct ancestors of our hot-cross buns.”

GURL....

You asked for the smileys in your signature and were supplied with them..

SO USE THEM.. lol

sorry. I have not made it my habit to follow you and read all your posts

I'm not a fan. this thread is particular is tiresome because of the agenda it has and also the fact it is way early

you mix law and salvation together

that is the problem I have with your posts and discussions

Don't eat anymore OREO's

I believe that chocolate used to be offered to Mayan gods by the Inca's. Golden Oreo's are scripturally sound though.

The shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for my sins and repentance guided by the Holy Spirit are sufficient for my salvation. I am in communication with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each day and don't consider having fellowship with my family during Christmas and Easter to be a pagan practice. Even if it were, my salvation is already assured and if I were doing wrong the Holy Spirit would convict me of this. Even Paul said that all things are lawful but not all things are expedient. You are obviously zealous for the law and while I don't consider that to be necessarily a bad thing it does tend to take the joy of out life. God wants us to have life and to have it more abundantly, and not to be bogged down worrying about every little thing that does not take away from our spiritual walk with the Lord.

You think you do, my heart... huh well yes evil people dressed in Santa clothes have hurt people, who knows the author of that article could be a victim who is lashing out about it.

Many things have pagan roots the names of days most the world uses and a whole laundry list of things. the cross the crucifix has pagan roots. the pagans first started the hanging on the cross/cruxifix as a religionous practiced if a person did bad things sinned while living etc, dying it was a honor to them to be crucified hung above the ground as to not spoiled the ground and leave bad vibes whatever, well the Romans knew of that practiced and turned it into a punishment. thus how they started crucifying.

is what you believe.

1. YOU know who heart is truly changed because they will not have anything to do with Christmas because YOU say it is pagan

2. YOU honestly do not think many people care about these things

3. YOU think most want a religion that makes them happy as opposed to what God wants

4. YOU seem to think God wants us miserable, according to #3 above, even though His word says His joy is our STRENGTH

5. YOU seem to want to define who seeks God which comes full circle back to # 1

sorry. I have not made it my habit to follow you and read all your posts

I'm not a fan. this thread is particular is tiresome because of the agenda it has and also the fact it is way early

you mix law and salvation together

that is the problem I have with your posts and discussions

the problem lies in your false understanding of the scripture, not my quoting it

what part of THEORIES did you not comprehend?

you posited the theories you find make your case and I posted random theories to illustrate the fact there is no hard case

BTW? what do you think this if not a message board otherwise known as a forum

you can't make this stuff up

I don't find your post credible no matter the length of it. that is proof only of your ability to copy/paste what you find agreeable

Here:

Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

1 Yahanan/John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of YHWH: When we love YHWH by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of YHWH: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

ohh and the world gives me misery, the Instructions of Yah have been rest fom that life of sin, the Messiah leads the way... sets one free from sin not free from Instructions...