Sabbath

I wasn't actually thinking that you should back off, but rather if you'd like to list what you feel are all the laws that you need to keep that might be interesting, a place to start. One thing I found is that nearly every person in favor of keeping some kind of rule related to pleasing God has a different set of rules from other people. At least that's been my experience here on the forums.

Grandpa's point - Faith in Christ (blood, redemptive work, et al) gives US (you, me, Joe Gentile) rest from works of the law., which he's defined it to mean "obeying the 10 commandments". He concludes that faith in Christ gives us gentiles rest from obeying the 10 commandments particularly because no one can obey them; we attempt to obey them but fail and thus sin...and any attempt to try to obey them even after receiving Christ's Spirit amounts to self-righteousness and thus more sin (and legalism). So no attempt can be made to obey the commandments of those in Christ by faith because any attempt is carnality.

[I hope I haven't mischaracterized you Grandpa. If I have please forgive me and correct me.]
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seriously, it's not.

Galatians 3:11-12
Clearly no one who relies on the Law is justified before God, because "the righteous will live by faith." The Law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."

does this not clearly indicate that righteousness before God is not a property of law-keeping?

As I said, I wasn't following the exchange between yourself and other people recently.

I was thinking just this morning about how in any discussion about law keeping, the big question I think is always which laws and how intensely to keep them. And I suppose you could add weather to keep them physically or spiritually. To circumcise or not? Is it spiritual or physical? Keep the Sabbath by not working physically or spiritually? Keep a feast like Jesus did but don't go to Jerusalem as Jesus did?

Ok I see. Well the ten commandments is the list of laws I'd encourage to be kept...and I've found just as many opposed to keeping them either say they are kept spiritually, or Christ keeps them for us, or they can't be kept at all (all done away completely), to one claiming all but the subject of this thread (the Sabbath) are prescribed in the New Covenant and to encourage the remembrance of the Sabbath and to keep it holy is legalistic.

So The Ten Commandments are mine.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, "Why do you ask Me about what is good? Only One is good. But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments."

do you believe it's OK for me to hate my neighbor as long as i don't envy his stuff or his wife, steal from him, lie about him, sleep with his wife, murder him, worship him or work in his yard on saturdays?

No. You've indeed broken the commandments, committing murder, if you hate your neighbor (1 John 3:15; Matthew 5:21-22). We can't be partial with Yah's law obeying one commandment but not another.

Love Yah = obey the first 4 commandments (first 5 if you think about it)

Love Neighbor as Self = obey the last 6 commandments

If we love Yah we will want to do the first set, including the Sabbath. If we love our neighbor we will want to do the last set.

----

I'm not sure we fully realize this, but The 10 commandments were the very nature of Christ written down on stone tablets. The entire bible is about Christ. It's why they were given on the very same day as when His own Spirit was given: Pentecost (shavuot).

The problem was, you can't put stone tablets on the inside of a person. But it's Christ's very character and nature that was written down.

Christ said, "Moses wrote about me. If you don't believe what Moses wrote, how can you believe what I say?"(John 5:46)

Christ is in the image of the invisible God. In the beginning they said, let us make man in our image and "likeness". The image was the body (which is why every prophetic vision of Christ, even as early as Daniel, has described him as "one like the son of man"; one who looks like a man). The likeness, is His character/nature/Spirit, which was lost during Adam's fall in the garden before any of us were born.

So humanity was never in the likeness of Yah, though in his image. We didn't have Christ's character. His Spirit was first given on tablets at Mt. Sinai; tablets of sapphire stone from Yah's throne that descended from heaven. Christ was then broken because of Israel's sin and then Moses himself was commanded to carve out new stone tablets from the earth like the first which Yah would write on.

Christ said, "I am from above. you are from below" (John 8:23)

Those tablets then go directly into the mercy seat, the earthly throne of Yah.

The Word; The Law; The Torah made flesh descended from heaven and was broken because of sin. Next, The Word; The Law; The Torah is written on flesh from the earth to create Yah earthly throne.


We can not separate the commandments of Yah from the love of Yah given through the Holy Spirit of his Son because they ARE what make up his unique character/spirit. This is why His spirit moves us to be careful to keep his decrees and commandments; it makes us WANT to do them. It would never compel us away from doing one of them because that would be compelling us away from part of himself. Christ isn't confused or schizophrenic.

The 10 commandments ARE Christ's personality if you will.

This is why I feel it's not carnality to want to obey the commandments or to encourage other believers to also but actually a consequence of listening to Christ's Spirit as he writes them on our hearts. And then that same Spirit that compels obedience teaches exactly how.

Meanwhile any thought as to why the commandments shouldn't be obeyed, especially thought laced with derision and malice and slander and labeling/name calling and other forms of hatred directed at a person one disagrees with, are actually carnality/flesh operating against the new nature - Christ's Spirit - now inside a believer.


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery, idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Christ never disobeyed/sinned and He honored the Sabbath because it's his very character written down on stone, then on paper, and now in our heart. And that character is the same yesterday, and forever no matter which believer He's inside.

No. You've indeed broken the commandments, committing murder, if you hate your neighbor (1 John 3:15; Matthew 5:21-22). We can't be partial with Yah's law obeying one commandment but not another.

Love Yah = obey the first 4 commandments (first 5 if you think about it)

Love Neighbor as Self = obey the last 6 commandments

If we love Yah we will want to do the first set, including the Sabbath. If we love our neighbor we will want to do the last set.

----

I'm not sure we fully realize this, but The 10 commandments were the very nature of Christ written down on stone tablets. The entire bible is about Christ. It's why they were given on the very same day as when His own Spirit was given: Pentecost (shavuot).

The problem was, you can't put stone tablets on the inside of a person. But it's Christ's very character and nature that was written down.

Christ said, "Moses wrote about me. If you don't believe what Moses wrote, how can you believe what I say?"(John 5:46)

Christ is in the image of the invisible God. In the beginning they said, let us make man in our image and "likeness". The image was the body (which is why every prophetic vision of Christ, even as early as Daniel, has described him as "one like the son of man"; one who looks like a man). The likeness, is His character/nature/Spirit, which was lost during Adam's fall in the garden before any of us were born.

So humanity was never in the likeness of Yah, though in his image. We didn't have Christ's character. His Spirit was first given on tablets at Mt. Sinai; tablets of sapphire stone from Yah's throne that descended from heaven. Christ was then broken because of Israel's sin and then Moses himself was commanded to carve out new stone tablets from the earth like the first which Yah would write on.

Christ said, "I am from above. you are from below" (John 8:23)

Those tablets then go directly into the mercy seat, the earthly throne of Yah.

The Word; The Law; The Torah made flesh descended from heaven and was broken because of sin. Next, The Word; The Law; The Torah is written on flesh from the earth to create Yah earthly throne.


We can not separate the commandments of Yah from the love of Yah given through the Holy Spirit of his Son because they ARE what make up his unique character/spirit. This is why His spirit moves us to be careful to keep his decrees and commandments; it makes us WANT to do them. It would never compel us away from doing one of them because that would be compelling us away from part of himself. Christ isn't confused or schizophrenic.

The 10 commandments ARE Christ's personality if you will.

This is why I feel it's not carnality to want to obey the commandments or to encourage other believers to also but actually a consequence of listening to Christ's Spirit as he writes them on our hearts. And then that same Spirit that compels obedience teaches exactly how.

Meanwhile any thought as to why the commandments shouldn't be obeyed, especially thought laced with derision and malice and slander and labeling/name calling and other forms of hatred directed at a person one disagrees with, are actually carnality/flesh operating against the new nature - Christ's Spirit - now inside a believer.


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery, idolatry and sorcery; hatred, discord, jealousy, and rage; rivalries, divisions, factions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Christ never disobeyed/sinned and He honored the Sabbath because it's his very character written down on stone, then on paper, and now in our heart. And that character is the same yesterday, and forever no matter which believer He's inside.

the Word which became Flesh.

this is Who was nailed to the cross

We can not separate the commandments of Yah from the love of Yah given through the Holy Spirit of his Son because they ARE what make up his unique character/spirit. This is why His spirit moves us to be careful to keep his decrees and commandments; it makes us WANT to do them. It would never compel us away from doing one of them because that would be compelling us away from part of himself. Christ isn't confused or schizophrenic.

Ok I see. Well the ten commandments is the list of laws I'd encourage to be kept...and I've found just as many opposed to keeping them either say they are kept spiritually, or Christ keeps them for us, or they can't be kept at all (all done away completely), to one claiming all but the subject of this thread (the Sabbath) are prescribed in the New Covenant and to encourage the remembrance of the Sabbath and to keep it holy is legalistic.

So The Ten Commandments are mine.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, "Why do you ask Me about what is good? Only One is good. But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments."

I have always promoted study of the same scriptures the Christ taught from. And to listen to Him and His Word's, both as a Man, and as the Word of God as did Paul and His Disciples. If a person does more than just "Hear" His Word's, and takes a leap of Faith and "does" what He instructs, as opposed to find excuses NOT to "do" what He says, then He has promised to "manifest" Him self to this person.

A person either "Believes" what He says enough to Follow Him. Or they don't in my experience.

And given what Paul called "Examples written for our admonition" has to say about those who obey, and those who reject His Word's, I believe His over all message is to obey. And it shouldn't be a surprise if there is a Large body of religious people who are opposed to His teaching. That has been the case since Abel was killed by His Christian Brother Cain. There is no credible evidence that the same would not be true today.

I will not tell you want to do, but we both have the same Word, we both know what God's Law is. As Paul said "Let each man be fully convinced in their own mind.

I do believe God is perfect, and His 10 Commandments are perfect as well. And I don't believe the popular teaching that humans are not able to follow them with the Christ's help. But that is my understanding.

love God and love one another are not among the 10 commandants, so you've just added a couple to the commands you said earlier you must keep. so you lied, saying ten, and are guilty of all, totally screwed if righteousness and judgement is by works. too late. and every single one of us is in that same boat because not one of us is perfect in every word we say.

why did the tablet say do not murder, instead of saying do not hate?

Yes, and this is also who Rose from the Dead and is the High Priest of the Almighty God. We should listen to Him.

REv. 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

Praise Him who was dead, but is now Alive.

We cannot separate but the Holy Spirit does separate the morals laws from the ceremonial shadows. We are not to judge one another in respect to shadows.

Colossians 2:16-18 King James Version (KJV)16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Morals law do not use different parable as reason to pertaining to His rest.

Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. Deuteronomy 5:13-15

A different reason other than the parable then using Egypt as picture the world and the Pharaoh as the god of it. A picture of the gospel.

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.Exodus20:9-11

It would seem most paraphrase's have tried to make the word rest into a time sensitive word.

The Youngs literal translation which represents the new era of sabbaths (Sunday)

Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulcher,

Again....The word sabbath is not a time sensitive word (week)

Do you believe every instruction Jesus gave is for us? I believe he told Peter to go fishing in order to get money to pay a particular tax. This is an example for us to follow also?

That's it? Only the Ten Commandments? No other Commandments?

it was not the traditions and commandments of men that were nailed to the cross. there was never any need for that.

Matt. 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

Matt. 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.


I supposed if Peter had been a carpenter, the Lord would have told him to go build something and earn money to pay taxes. In my understanding His lesson was not about "fishing" but about not to worry about the things in this world, that if we "Seek First the Kingdom of GOD and HIS Righteousness" the work or the fish needed to pay worldly tributes will be added to us.