Not By Works

Is this acce

John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”
You marginalize the slanderous name calling because you did it and your buddy did it.. So you know its ok. You sure this is proper behavior for a Christian?

Good quote John 1:17, what about Luke 16:16-17?

Some of the words of the King and Judge:

Luke 8:4-15, “4 And when a large crowd had gathered, and those who were coming to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable:"5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some indeed fell by the wayside. And it was trodden down, and the birds of the heaven devoured it."6 “And other fell on rock, and when it grew up, it withered because it had no moisture."7 “And other fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up with it and choked it."8 “And other fell on the good soil, and grew up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold.” Having said this He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”"9 And His taught ones were asking Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”"10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the reign of the Mighty One, but to the rest in parables, that ‘Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not understand.’ Isa 6:9."11 “And this is the parable: The seed is the word of the Mighty One. 12 “And those by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. (not saved)"13 “And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy. And these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of trial fall away. (not saved)"14 “And that which fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with worries, and riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to perfection. (not saved)"15 “And that on the good soil are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, retain it, and bear fruit with endurance. (saved)”

Luke 8:12 “And those by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.”

The Word near instantly taken out of their heart and mind, thus they did not seek Yah.

Luke 8:13 “And those on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy. And these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of trial fall away.”

Did not endure because as soon as a trial came they chose the easy path rather than Yah’s path.

Matthew 10:22, “And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”

Matt 24:12-13, “And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold. But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.”

Hebrews 10:6-8, “For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of Yah you may receive what is promised. 37 For yet a little while – He who is coming shall come and shall not delay. But the righteous shall live by belief, but if anyone draws back, my being has no pleasure in him.”

Hebrews 3:14, “For we have become partakers of Messiah if we hold fast the beginning of our trust firm to the end.”

James 1:12, “Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him.”

Luke 8: 14 “And that which fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with worries, and riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to perfection.”

They heard and accepted the Word, yet lived a life filled with worldly things, being distracted they never did Yah’s will with their life.

Mat 7:19-20, “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, by their fruits you shall know them.”

1 John 2:15-17, “Do not love the world, nor the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world: the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, with the lust that is in it; but he who does the will of YHWH abides forever.”

Luke 8:15 “And that on the good soil are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, retain it, and bear fruit with endurance.” (saved)

James 1:12, "Blessed is the man who does endure trial, for when he has been proved, he shall receive the crown of life which the Master has promised to those who love Him."

What did Jesus call the Pharisees? Those names were much more harsh than what I said, yet Jesus is God and Judge. Don’t be so sensitive.

Do you think Im as bad as the Pharisees who made their own law, would bring people to court and had killed people for transgressing it? They would swindle wodows out of thie possessions and children out of their inheritance... Do you think your judgement is as good as the Messiah's?

Well I am still talking to you, and did not slander back, and I find you telling me not to be sensitive funny honestly. I am albe to say the name calling is unfounded and wrong IMO, that does not mean Im bent out of shape or sensitive. Bottom line, I am slandered for promoting what the Messiah says is good, you may not agree but Scripture says this.

Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.”

adn no im not trying to be "great" I want to say that now, but I clearly see promoting the Instructions as right and demoting them as wrong...

Ezekiel 11:19-21, “And I shall give them one heart, and put a new spirit within you. And I shall take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, so that they walk in My laws, and guard My right-rulings, and shall do them. And they shall be My people and I shall be their Strength. But to those whose hearts walk after the heart of their disgusting matters and their abominations, I shall recompense their deeds on their own heads,” declares the Master יהוה.”

Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”

Fine I'm glad you agree that works do not save.

You say the abovementioned.

Can I rephrase it to see if you agree?

Faith will result in works (not sure what you mean by perfect faith).

So are we considered righteous by faith or by works?

Yes God has written his laws on our hearts as you say.

What are those laws?
Who were those laws given to?

What's your thoughts on V17

Hebrews 10:17
17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

The issue here I think is not the world or people here are saying you cannot seek it to obey it, the issue is you seek to obey in order to be saved.

Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commands"

We do because of love, if it is out of love then surely we have faith in him because he has released us to love and do.

Not in order to be saved.

That's what seperated the sheep from the goats.

Is Jesus looking for works or relationship?
Does works satisfy him or relationship?
Do we focus on relationship that leads to works?
Or do we focus on works only?

Like those that proclaimed great works but are rejected by Jesus?

Depart from me I never knew you.

Subtle character assassination. So typical. Go ahead and play the martyr and remain under the law if you wish. I’m done playing games with you.

Yep.....John called the lawyers and Pharisees of his day snakes and vipers...Jesus called them the blind leaders of the blind, white washed coffins and fools, hypocrites.....You're right we should pay attention to the words of Jesus and John concerning legalistic Pharisees that would place us back under that which condemns and proves guilt...!!!!

As we say over here "Its bloody hard"

Spent most of my Christian life waiting for the slap down and rejection from God when I didn't shape up and failed him.

I am so glad you are all getting older, some of you are now, making mistakes, like I have been doing for years. The bad news, is it only gets worse.

You know how one can tell who is of God and who is not? The snake embellished and added a word in the garden....one simple word-->NOT.....a child of God will not embellish the word of God, but rather take it at face value, in context and according to the definition of the word"s" either from Hebrew, Greek, Chaldean "Daniel" or Aramic "Jesus"......that is was inspired and written in........end of story!

I am humbled you asked the discussion. Thank you.

I think it is important to actually read what the Messiah said.

Matt. 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled

He is speaking to what religious man has named "The Old Testament", Yes? And it was pretty much the same for Him as it is for us. In fact, at this time in history, there was no other Book which discussed the Messiah, which gave God's Laws, which provided examples which Paul said were "written for us, that were to be used as examples and as admonition for US. Paul called this Book "The Gospel of Christ" in Romans 1.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Old Testament quote)

What other scripture did the Christ ever quote from? How many times did He say "It is written" and what was He speaking to? In every case He quoted from what is known as the Old Testament. What other Book did Paul ever quote from?

Luke 24:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Paul confirmed its importance.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So it seems the Messiah is taking a special interest is letting His People know that These scriptures are still here and still to be believed. There are volumes of scriptures which confirm this theme that I will forgo in an attempt to keep the post shorter.

Fulfill "Greek" = "pleroo"} to make replete. (Replete=fully or abundantly provided or filled) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisify, execute, (an office) finish (a period or task) verify (or coincide with a prediction), accomplish, complete, end, expire, fill (up) fulfill, (be, make) full, (come), Fully Preach, perfect, supply.

Destroy "Greek" = katalno} to loosen down (disintegrate) to demolish, to halt for the night:- destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to naught, overthrow, throw down.

Fulfill does not mean destroy. These two words are exact opposite in meaning.

Your question implies that fulfill means to destroy. "What part of the law has Jesus not fulfilled (destroyed) yet". I know this is the teaching of the "Other Voice" out there that has influenced us all, but I urge you to take the time and think about what He really said.

Can you see what I mean BenHur? We have been influenced by other voices to believe something about God's Word that is not true. Just like Eve was convinced by another voice to believe something about God that was not true.


I would say yes and so did Paul.

Rom. 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And where would we find the Will of God? In the Law and Prophets, Yes? Is there any other place on this planet where mankind can learn the will of God? I would say no.

We should find out who their Author is first, Yes?

Lev. 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, (Word which became Flesh) which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

Rom. 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind

Whose "Feasts" are they? The Popes? or the Christ's?

1 Cor. 5:
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul was convinced in his own mind regarding this "Feast" wasn't he.

I am humbled that you asked me these questions, and I will share what I have been taught by the scriptures. But there are a lot of questions so I think it would be good to establish some foundational principles first. Can we agree that Fulfill and destroy do not mean the same?

If Fulfill means to "Fully Provide", would that not agree with scriptures which promise He will write His Laws on His Peoples heart? Did He "Fully Provide" the Sacrifice foreshadowed by the Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law"?

Did He "destroy" the Priesthood, or is He still our High Priest?

I also long for honest adult Biblical discussions and am so grateful you engaged me for that reason. I am looking forward to this discussion and the edification it will bring to us both.

I'll leave it here for now but would like to ask something. Since John says the Christ was the Word of God, and He said He was the "I AM", do your believe that it was the Christ, before He became Flesh and dwelt among us, that gave Moses His Father's Laws to begin with?

I look forward to your reply

I thought Luke wrote Acts

I fall foul of that, being too sensitive.

But those who know me know that.

I mean this:

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

Faith is complete, true, authentic etc.

We are considered truly rightous only in YHWH.

Isaiah 45:21-25,21 “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from that time? Is it not I, יהוה? And there is no mighty one besides Me, a righteous Ěl and a Saviour, there is none besides Me."22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Ěl, and there is none else."23 “I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear."24 “One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame."25 “In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’ĕl shall be declared right and boast.”"

All the followers of YHWH, if you say it's only Israel then anyone outside Israel has any part of the New Covenant because Jer 31 says "to Israel" below:

It is a quote from Jer 31:34

Jeremiah 31:31-40,31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a "chadash" covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah, 32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthened their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. 33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people."34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”"35 Thus said יהוה, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the laws of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, and its waves roar – יהוה of hosts is His Name:"36 “If these laws vanish from before Me,” declares יהוה, “then the seed of Yisra’ĕl shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”"37 Thus said יהוה, “If the heavens above could be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I would also cast off all the seed of Yisra’ĕl for all that they have done,” declares יהוה."38 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “that the city shall be built for יהוה from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the Corner Gate."39 “And the measuring line shall again extend straight ahead to the hill Garĕḇ, then it shall turn toward Go‛ah."40 “And all the valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the wadi Qiḏron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, is to be set-apart to יהוה. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down any more forever.”"

34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more."

This has not yet happened, does everyone know YHWH? No in the kingdom this will be complete. Iknow this is sp crazy to modern doctrine, but fact is this has not yet been completed, all do not know Yah, and in the day of YHWH He will send the MEssiah and the world will be punished, recompense for the overflowing cup of abomanations...

Finally this:

36 “If these laws vanish from before Me,” declares יהוה, “then the seed of Yisra’ĕl shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”"

ohh but only for Jews! Yeah well since Exodus one Law for the native and for the stranger in Yah;s covenant:

Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

Exodus 12:47-49, “All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is nativeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.”

this is what "grafted in" means....

Just because it is not main stream does not mean it is not true. However I do want to say, no gentile can know the Instructions of YHWH or even those spoken by Yahshua when they first come to the faith, that is why we read the word, pray, etc... It odd, a set of guidelines were given to those "coming to the Messiah" in Acts 15, yet now even those are thrown out...

We can do a full breakdown of Mat7:21-23 later or another day if you want, I dont have the time this minute, where even those with differing views are not shunned but we all talk like adults, but to say uickly, "practice iniquity" has a meaning. I can make my own religion where mowing lawns is the work of Yah, then in judgement say "but I mowed lawns in your name!" if He didnt command it it is not His path... More to it than that, but sum just that one part up...

Yeah I think it comes down to love, but that is not man;s standard of love it is YHWH;s standard of love, explained in His Law and shown by the Messiah. No we are not perfect but He gives an example, and we are to walk in the way.

He is looking for those who will follow Him:

John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."

He is looking for those that sublit to Him:

Matthew 10:37-39, “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 “And he who does not take up his stake and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 “He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it.”

We focus on staying in Him, then we are able to do His will:

John/Yahanan 15:5-16, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you.”

This would cause one to not follow the Messiah, I think this is Mat 7:22 like, if we focuse on the Shepherd we will walk in His path, if we look away we can get off the path and not even realize it.

he did yet this is Paul being quoted:

Paul confirmed its importance.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

you mean the pharisees who rejected the Law of YHWH and made their own man made laws?

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

Yeah, I submit to YHWH and His Laws...

I was having a scriptual debate You were the one who called me names now im the bad guy... ok.

mailmandan said:
Obeying the 10 commandments is not the plan of salvation. If it were, then nobody would be saved because nobody has perfectly obeyed the 10 commandments, EXCEPT JESUS.

I usually get attacked by those who are zealous about keeping the Sabbath day (even though it's not binding on the Church under the New Covenant - Colossians 2:16-17) and such people confidently and self righteously believe they will receive eternal life based on obeying the law. I have been accused of following my own religious traditions by these misguided teachers of the law who pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works" yet I have always stood by the true gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). I never hear my accusers mention anything about that, but they sure like to continuously talk about the Sabbath, the 10 Commandments and the law in general. [/QUOTE]

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, WHO PERVERT THE GRACE OF OUR GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR IMMORALITY and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

WHO ARE THOSE PERVERTING THE GRACE OF GOD INTO A LICENSE FOR "IMMORALITY"?

ARE THEY THE ONES WHO PROMOTE OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAWS AND COMMANDS OR THOSE WHO NULLIFIES GOD'S WORDS FOR FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES?

Matthew 7:12-27,12 “Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets."13 “Enter in through the narrow gate! Because the gate is wide – and the way is broad – that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in through it."14 “Because the gate is narrow and the way is hard pressed which leads to life, and there are few who find it. 15 “But beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are savage wolves. 16 “By their fruits you shall know them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?"17 “So every good tree yields good fruit, but a rotten tree yields wicked fruit."18 “A good tree is unable to yield wicked fruit, and a rotten tree to yield good fruit."19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."20 “So then, by their fruits you shall know them –"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens."22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’"23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’ (Psa 6:8, Mat 13:41-42) 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, shall be like a wise man who built his house on the rock,"25 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock."26 “And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not do them, shall be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand, 27 and the rain came down, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”