Sabbath

Yes, this is pretty much correct.

Now we just need to find out what it is that is written in our hearts and minds.

Is it death and condemnation, the 10 commandments, that are written on our hearts when we come to Christ and receive rest?

No. How could it be? There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

It is the Ministration of Righteousness that is written on our hearts and minds when we come to Christ.

What is the Ministration of Righteousness?

2 Corinthians 3:3-9
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


As you can plainly read it is a major ERROR to say that it is Death and Condemnation, written and engraven on stones, that is written on our hearts when we come to Christ.

This is how we KNOW that Gods Law and Moses Law are two entirely different things.

Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 9:31-32
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Because they sought it not by faith (in Christ, the ministration of Righteousness, the writer of His Own Law on our hearts) but as it were by the works of the law (trying to "keep" a Saturday sabbath, exchanging a "keeping" of sabbath for Rest in Christ and His Righteousness) This should sound VERY familiar to all the SDA's, Hebrew roots and legalists.

Do you believe then that the original King James of 1611 is inspired by God?

But it IS instituted in genesis the same way the sun, moon, and stars are instituted for time, seasons, days, and years, and the same way evening and morning are instituted for measuring the day. The act of yah sanctifying the seventh day IS the act of instituting the sabbath day; were told "because he rested on the seventh day". We're told the seventh day was also blessed.

Genesis 2:3

Ba yom ha shibi = on the seventh day

Kosesh = sanctified; set apart; holy

Barek (baruch) = blessed

Ki sabat milka melaktow = because rest from all his work

Genesis 2:3 literally tells us shibi is kodesh because sabat. "Sabat" = sabbath. "Seventh day is holy because sabbath."

But you're right to bring up covenants when talking about the sabbath observance, but before I address that portion of what you said I'd like to ask you if you agree with the following:

Do you agree that Moses wrote Genesis for Israel? That it was given to them as part of a unified collection of instructions, during their time in the wilderness before he died?

With respect Ben, the sabbath was never instituted as a ritual to cleans sins like certain other laws were, so your premise wouldn't be correct.

If the sabbath was given as a ritual to cover sins then I would wholeheartedly agree that obedience to it now would trample over Christ's work.

That's the key question we have to answer first when we argue whether or not that law is trampling the work of Christ.

"Is the law in question one that was for cleansing of sin?"

While I appreciate your line of reasoning and found it "informative", in that it is a good and alternative perspective (on how to look at the question), I think at least one point still stands. We should not diminish obedience, but neither should we glorify it, to the degree that it would rob Jesus of His due glory. Our salvation is from the Lord, given and received through the blood of Christ. This righteousness is one of faith, and not merit, a justification that glorifies God (revealing His mercy).

If we ever find ourselves slipping into self-righteousness, no matter the law that is believed to be obeyed or else, we have missed Christ's obedience. It is because of our Lord and Savior that we are redeemed, and reconciled. This does not negate our service to the Lord, but in some ways, inspires it.

To observe the Sabbath, whether it be by decree or discipline, does in no way overwrite one's standing before the Lord that is found in the work of Christ. Debate its observance all you want, but will we discount the Lord's work for our own? Our foundation is Christ, and whether we are to observe the Sabbath or not, should in no way condemn us in our hearts, in respect to our justification before God.

Yet the command to keep the Sabbath day holy for Israel was not instituted in Genesis, but in Exodus, yet you seem to have your agenda, as do SDA's and those in the Hebrew Roots movement in general.

Genesis 2:3

Click to expand...

This only proves that God rested from all his work on the seventh day and blessed and sanctified it, yet it does not prove that keeping the Sabbath day holy was instituted and commanded for the fathers, prior to Moses in Exodus. Contrary to Sabbatarian assertions, the Bible is completely silent upon the subject of keeping the Sabbath day holy until the time of the Exodus.

I have no argument against Moses writing Genesis (or the first five books of the Bible) for that matter. Most if not all scholars attribute the majority of these books to Moses.

physical circumcision was never for atonement of sins. and what does His apostle say about it now, after the advent of Christ?

and it was the sign given of a covenant.
and the sabbaths were also given to Israel as a sign, in another covenant.

what then?

SO you have no part in the covenant? Because there is not a "covenant for Jew" and another "for gentiles"....

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

and according to Isaiah 56:1-7 the Sabbath is indeed and always has been for Gentiles who worship Yah, but no matter how many times I post it anyone who disagrees will never touch that passage...

Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though YHWH's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are YHWH's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is YHWH our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

That apostle explains what was told to Israel in Deuteronomy 30:6 about circumcision during the Sinai Covenant, proving one is still (and must be) circumcised after the advent of Christ.

Where did circumcision go?

Who's focus on carnality (fleshy things) here between the two of us?

well, are you talking about earthly sabbath-keeping?

because it is very clear that the only circumcision that is required is a heavenly one specifically not done by human hands.

The Messiah says nothing from the Law will pass:

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

They say it has passed:

Daniel 7:25, “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change appointed times and laws..."

easy choice for me who I beleive...

Well of course I have an agenda Dan. It’s to encourage believers in Christ to obey the commandments; preparing his people for his appearance because the king is coming.

I try to show exactly what the scriptures say about the relationship between the king’s sacrifice and His commandments, first given at Sinai and then further explained during and after His ministry.


Hebrew 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called to day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:


Rhetorical questions: What does it mean to harden one’s heart through the deceitfulness of sin? How is sin successfully deceiving believers? Could it be they’re deceived to believe they can’t stop sinning even with the power of Christ, after they’re cleansed and given a new heart?

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The reason why I asked you if you agreed with Moses as the author is because I feel we mistakenly read/study these books divorced from the context of the situation in which they were given.

As you agree, Moses gave all five books to Israel at the same time as one collection, part of the Sinai covenant. Again, all five books were given to Israel in relation to the one covenant they agreed to before Moses died, as if to say, “Ok Israel we’re in agreement with Yah so here you go - a 5 volume set!”

My point is to draw attention to the reason Moses gave the book of Genesis (in particular) to Israel:

- They lived through the exodus...

- They agreed to obey Yah at the mountain...

- They then live through the wilderness journey…

- So Exodus and Numbers are journals explaining “how” everything transpired related to Israel’s covenant; they’re books of remembrance.

- Moses also details “what” was commanded of Israel related to their covenant (Leviticus & Deuteronomy); the meat of their instructions.

So what other logical reason was Genesis given to Israel before entering the promised land other than to explain “why” certain instructions were given and “why” they went through certain things in their journey?

One particular “why” that Genesis gives is for the particular instruction of the Sabbath day.

So my point is, we can’t divorce a specific instruction (written in one book) from the reason that it was given (detailed in another book) because all five books were given to Israel together.

We're here Posthuman. One the earth. We're not in heaven.

The circumcision that's required is an earthly one specifically not done by human hands. It still happens to these bodies down here.


Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with ALL thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou may live.

Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God.


Circumcision is something you and I must still participate in with Yah. We still have to come to him to be "cut"...

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Acts 2:38
And Peter says to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


...and I can tell you this now. What's very clear is that many believers (after Christ) definitely are NOT circumcised yet.

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Yes or no; is the Sabbath still required to be kept?

Not qualifying it with "spiritual" or "physical", what's your answer (maybe we can start there and find common ground)?

the commandment is physical circumcision.

since you obviously set aside the physical commandment of circumcision in order to honor the spiritual circumcision, I assume that you are not a hypocrite, and that you consider the other covenant sign the same way.

Turning keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for believers in Christ under the new covenant is not how you encourage Christians to obey the commandments or prepare His people for His appearance (Colossians 2:16-17; 1 John 3:23).

The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He has loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). Out of this single command comes other commands, including references for the moral aspect of 9 of the 10 commandments which are reiterated under the new covenant, yet the command to keep the Sabbath day is not binding on Christians under the new covenant.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
2. You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17
5. Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
6. You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
7. You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
8. You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
10. You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

More exhaustive list:

Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22,23,24; 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23; 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9

Acts 15:20,29, Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15

Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9

Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2

Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11

Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18; 18:20, Romans 13:9, James 2:11, 2 Peter 2:14

Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28

Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20

Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14

I'm just going to comment on the parts you've made bold. I cut & linked the rest for space.


Law: Keep the Sabbath Day Holy (Under the New Covenant?)

I noticed that you reference many instances in the gospels when Christ himself spoke about a commandment, so you stand behind Christ's words, believing at least 9 out of 10 still apply to believers in the New covenant Amen.

I'm stating the obvious because some like to argue against the use of Christ's words as proof of obedience to the commandments, saying he was merely teaching "pre-cross" lessons. But I want to share what Christ said about the Sabbath.


Matthew 12:12
How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath.

Mark 3:4
And He asked them, “Which is LAWFUL on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” But they were silent.


...so Christ gave instructions on obeying the Sabbath day too. "Doing good" is a moral aspect of love for one's neighbor as well.

Next, you'll recall that each feast day is a High Sabbath when the Law requires all able-bodied males to be in the Holy City for celebration, and Christ went to each one. I won't waste time listing the instances. Then upon his death we read...


Luke 23:55-56
The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how His body was placed. 56 Then they returned to prepare spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.


^^This happened AFTER Christ established the new covenant in his blood so these were NT believers obeying the Sabbath Law by resting. Then after the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost we have Paul (apostle to the gentiles)...


Acts 18:20-21
20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that comes in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.


So Paul also kept the High Sabbath feast ("by all means"), again AFTER Christ established the new covenant in his blood.

That's 10 for 10 for the commandments in the NT isn't it? So how can I be guilty of twisting a legalistic prescription when Christ himself teaches on keeping the day holy and also the day was honored by believers according to the commandment; with both the weekly version being honored AND the Feast version?

There is only ONE source that matters.

Sure it is. Once again context. However this time it is broader than the chapter. It is the context of the letter. Since you like sources before We open up the context for you We will site a couple in regards to euengelismenoi.

First from Strong's:

G2097
εὐαγγελίζω
euaggelizō
yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo
From G2095 and G32; to announce good news (“evangelize”) especially the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel).
Total KJV occurrences: 55


So one can easily see that it does not necessarily mean the Gospel but announcing of good news. Apparently though "especially the announcing of the Gospel". Fifty five occurrences. Quit a few in which the Gospel is used in the translation. Let's look at another source though; a Lexicon.


We will used the most recognized; the BDAG. Here is what they cite in regards to the word.

1 gener. bring good news, announce good news....
2 mostly specif. proclaim the divine message of salvation, proclaim the gospel....
β. w. a pers. as subj. of one receiving a message of deliverance have good news announced to one (2 Km 18:31; Jo 3:5) of the gospel Mt 11:5; Lk 7:22; Hb 4:2, 6. Of apostles receiving the gospel in behalf of others ἀπό τινος fr. someone 1 Cl 42:1.—B. 1478. DELG s.v. ἄγγελος. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq.



So not only does the BDAG concur with Strong's work, they cite that they see Heb 4:2 is one of the instances to which the THE Gospel is to be understood in the translation.



Why? Certainly not grammar because grammar would dictate the translation to read a gospel or for that matter good news preached as you say. So that leaves context. So let's look at the context shall we. What good news is being proclaimed that applies directly to us entering or have entered, and are they or it the Gospel?

The Rest; the Gospel is of, through, and in Christ Jesus. Please note it is not a future rest in Hebrews four as some commentators put forth. It states specifically in verse four that we which believe do enter in this rest (including the writer). Which means they (including the writer) where experiencing it then as we are now. Couple that with verse ten where it states in the aorist tense (basically past), "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

So what about the context? What is the rest to which is unfolded in Hebrews?

the Gospel is the good news. Gospel means good news, or good/glad tidings. so, nice try at word games, but the Gospel does not mean Sabbath, and those words are in Hebrews 4 appear as they appear. and, katapausis does NOT mean Gospel.

the language does not say so. you have no authority over it.

Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for accusing Him and his disciples of doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.

And who was Christ addressing? The Pharisees under the law or the Church under the new covenant?

So they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment under the old covenant. And what does that prove? Just because they rested (as they were used do doing for how many years?) whether shortly before or after Christ died does not prove keeping the Sabbath day is binding on the Church under the new covenant.

I noticed the NASB reads - but taking leave of them and saying, “I will return to you again if God wills,” he set sail from Ephesus. *No mention of keeping a feast.

Regardless, there would have been a reason for keeping it other than must or else under the new covenant. *Now show me UNDER THE NEW COVENANT where Paul specifically commands the Church to keep the Sabbath day.

NO. It's still 9 for 10. *Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

By Christ rebuking the Pharisees in regards to the Sabbath day and certain people resting on the Sabbath around the time of Christ's death (as they had been used to doing for years) and Paul keeping a feast (for whatever reason) still does not justify you turning keeping the Sabbath day into a legalistic prescription for the Church under the new covenant, but you have your agenda.

BY what authority are people given to pick and choose which parts of Moses Law they like the best and which ones they can discard?

I haven't read anywhere in the bible where it says it is ok to do that. I have never heard of a prophet or of the Lord Jesus Christ telling anyone to go ahead and follow certain laws that you like but discard the rest.

We can't mix a little bit of Moses Law with a little bit of the Lord Jesus Christ and expect that is what makes us Super Righteous.

We get one or the other. Follow Moses Law. Or follow the Lord Jesus Christ and Rest in His Righteousness and Salvation.

Be dead to the law and alive to God, or be alive to the law and dead to God.


Revelation 3:3-15
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Cold - heart of stone, those that follow the law written on stone
Hot - heart of flesh, those that follow the Spirit

Cold - death
Hot - life

Cold - work and toil for their own righteousness
Hot - Rest in Christ and His Righteousness


Its easy to be luke-warm. Its hard to be one or the other. To be all-in. But that's the way it is.

Of course, if the legalist, Hebrew roots and SDA had understanding they would know all this. But they are stiff-necked in their resolve to work at the law in their own understanding.

Galatians 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Verse 3 - you can't pick and choose which parts of the law are your favorites. You either make them into a carnal law that you can fulfill with your own strength and understanding or you come to Christ and find out that the law is indeed Spiritual and you have no power to fulfill a spiritual law by your same carnal strength and carnal understanding. Can't mix the two.