Not By Works

="BillG, post: 3690933, member: 252071"] I think you are just mocking me, but just in case you are serious. My point is once a man breaks a law he is guilty. It doesn't matter if he spends the rest of his days in obedience to that Law, he is still guilty for breaking it and the penalty must be dealt with. If I kill someone, I am going to jail. It doesn't matter if I never kill again, that penalty must be paid. Nothing I can do will reverse the penalty. If I am to receive mercy, it must come from a power greater than I, because there is nothing I can do to free myself from the consequences of my lawless action.

Do you understand this point?

Yes, for instance, in Paul's time, the Mainstream Preachers, the Pharisees, were preaching that it is still necessary to perform the Sacrificial ceremonial Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for removal of sins. This included various animals which were killed then the Levite Priests would perform rituals and sprinkle this blood on the Alter, according to the Law of the Priesthood for atonement of sins. These Priests refused all the scriptures in the Law and Prophets which talked about how God required obedience not sacrifices and the New Covenant where the Messiah would cleanse sins with His own Blood. And administer God's Laws Himself, no more Levite Priests to filter His Word (Jer. 31) All the Scriptures speaking of Gentiles (Uncircumcised by definition) would be brought in His Fold. These Preachers judged much of God's Word as beneath them, and they "omitted" them from their religion as Jesus said.

Since they rejected much of God's Word, they didn't know Him when He came to them as did Zechariah. So given they didn't believe He was their Messiah they were still relying on sacrificial "Works of the Law" for the atonement of sins. They rejected the only "Blood" that could cleanse them.

Is this not true according to scriptures?

The Pharisees were not keeping the "weightier matters of the Law". These they should have done, and not left the other undone. Had they "glorified God as God" they would have done as Zechariahs did, and they would have known Jesus when He came to them. This is why they didn't receive Mercy. They thought they were already saved, they believed they were "Children of God", but they reject His Words, and worse, they discredited, persecuted, and placed on permanent ignore anyone who showed them the parts of God's Laws they rejected.

This act infuriates religious men who call Him Lord, but refuse to do what He says. This anger from religious man has been going on since Abel was killed by his "Christian" brother.

It is customary for religious man to take their anger and resentment towards God, out on those who show them His Words. It was the Christ who said:

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

Not me, but this verse and many more, do anger a lot of folks on this forum.

I generally make it a habit not to judge God's Words. I know it is popular in Mainstream Christianity to do such things. My place is to believe what is written.

Since my word's mean nothing, I will answer with the inspired Word's of the Word which became Flesh.

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So we can see that Paul also chooses to believe Moses and the Prophets, not judge them. What does Paul say about these Laws.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

So clearly Paul understood the Commandment and He also believed in it. I broke God's Sabbath, or I stole, or I stole, and I was put to death just like God Commanded. Remember, Paul did say that the Law is Spiritual.

So full circle, I rebelled against God, these motions killed me as it is written, so here we are at the beginning of this post.

Now I can keep God's Sabbath every week, never kill again ever, never steal again, ever. But will those "works" save me from the death my motions brought forth?

No Billy. Nothing "I" can do will erase this death from me. There is only ONE who can remove this penalty.

So let's say this ONE does remove this penalty. What now?

Rom. 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,(Killed by it) but under grace (Alive)? God forbid.

I'm sorry Billy, I don't think this is confusing at all, it makes perfect sense with me and the entire Bible agrees front and back. It does go against what many religious men teach, but who should care about what some religious man teaches when we all have God's Words at our finger tip?

It would be a decent thing for you to answer and deal with my replies instead of acting as if I didn't even post. It is good to have discussion about God's Words, but you just keep ignoring my posts. If you don't want to engage in a two way conversation, just stop replying. I'm OK with that. But if we are going to continue, I think you should at least address some of my questions and some of the scriptures I post. It seems like the very least of courtesies.

Can you show me the scripture where the Laws God gave to Abraham were "Noahide laws". I don't know everything, but I have never seen this in the Bible.

How do we know Abraham believed God?

Gen. 12:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

In your religion:

Did Abraham have the Levitical Priesthood ceremonial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins? Or did God "ADD" those "works of the Law" 430 years later?

In your religion,

What if Abram told God: Your instructions are too burdensome and unjust. Surely you don't want me to leave the religion of my father and my family. I will just stay with them and demand the same blessing as those who Love You and Keep Your commandments?

Would God have made His Name great anyway?

And in your religion:

If Eve had said to the serpent, Get away from me serpent. God said we live by EVERY WORD of God, not just those which we can use to feed the desires or our mind.

Would her name have been great like Rehab's?

does the scripture lie when it says the Law came 430 years after Abraham?

are there no sacrifices in the Law that atone for sin?
the scripture you yourself quoted says with regard to the righteousness that is in the Law Saul, called Paul, was blameless. he goes on to say he considers all that dung compared to the riches of Christ.

I know study dude rejects this scripture because his hatred for ((what he imagines about)) pharisees blinds him to the truth and consumes his thinking. but why would you reject it, Hiz? the scripture says blameless with regard to the righteousness that is of the Law. I believe what the Word says: also that such righteousness of Law is worthless in the light of the Son and His grace towards us.

this is the teaching of many men. I am sorry to read that you accept it.

the Bible says blameless with regard to the righteousness in the Law. not in regard to the righteousness of the commandments and teachings and traditions of men.

that settles the matter.

the pharisees had Jesus put to death on the charge of heresy, according to Torah, because it was very clear to them He claimed equality with YHVH. the only way this was a false charge is if He is in fact equal to God.
under the same commandment in the Law Saul being ignorant at that time of the Truth persecuted believers to their death. zealous, but without knowledge.
they did not believe He Is. out of ignorance then, they sinned in this, being blind to His holy person.
the Law provides sacrifices for remission of sins committed in ignorance, so that a man or woman who commits such iniquity may be pardoned and thence found blameless under the Law.

The lawyers, workers for and Cainologists cannot be honest with the truth concerning their law abiding rigmarole.....because if they did....they would have to admit error....

AMEN.....the definite article tells me clearly that he was referencing the LAW and not the religious traditions employed by the Pharisees....again the lawyers and Pharisees (modern Hebrew roots fanatics) cannot be honest with the truth because it proves their erroneous views and thinking....

AMEN....100% settles it....."THE" <---definite article is pointed at LAW and that righteousness found IN the LAW not the Pharisee's tradition.

Hi Cee, thank you for posting this and I think it was you who reminded us, that either you fall on the Rock or the Rock will fall on you. I fell on the Rock 40yrs ago and I continue to serve Him faithfully with the abilities and strength He has given each day, praise God.

When you search for God sincerely, "listen and be still", He will absolutely reveal Himself to you.

God bless!

Matthew 16:15
Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah:
13)When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, Who do people say the Son of Man is
14) They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15) “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16) Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17) Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Gal. 1:
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

What Law of God told Saul to persecute the church of God? What does the Bible say the traditions of the Fathers was?

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.


Matt. 15:
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not God as you preach)

Matt. 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.


John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Does not matter pal....He used the definite article aimed at THE LAW and the OUTWARD righteousness afforded in the law regardless of your inability to acknowledge this truth.....

THE LAW....not THE JEW'S TRADITIONS....and LIKE POSTHUMAN pointed out above, your hatred of the Pharisees has blinded you to many truths.....

You know me better than that Studyman, at least give me some credit.

Your post to which I responded you ended as below.

I then added more verses from Exodus that were a few of Gods commandments.
I asked if you endorsed them as they are also Gods commandments.

So do we keep those commandments that God also gave?

That is what I was trying to get at.

Bill

No, the scriptures do not lie. Religious man lies, but not God's Word.

Do you believe God lied when He said this?

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

What if Abraham's Children in Egypt had forgotten God's Laws that He gave to Abraham? What if God remembered His agreement with Abraham and gave these same Laws to Abraham's children to guide them in their journey out of Egypt, as He did to Abraham to guide his journey out of his fathers land?

Ex. 2:
23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had respect unto them

And what if God "ADDED" a "Priesthood" Law because of "Transgressions" "until the SEED should come". A Priesthood that Abraham didn't have which contained certain sacrificial "Works" to be performed by a Levite (who were not even born in Abraham's time) specifically for the atonement of sins. (transgressions of God's Law He gave to Abraham)

It is because I believe God's doesn't lie, that I see what He did.

Now Billy,

I went into quite a detailed explanation of my understanding of the scriptures here and addressed every one of your questions, and addressed your "confusion"..

You are free to ask another question or change the subject if you like. But it would be great if you would address the answers I gave to your questions so we can see if you and I are on the same page, and see if your confusion over my understanding of scriptures has been settled.

If you would be so considerate as to address my reply to your first questions, I would be glad to further look at this replies question.. But if you would be so kind, please address my first answer. It will make the answer to this question easier to understand.

I read every bit of your explanation, even though it was an extremely long Post. You have got to work on that. When I first Joined years ago, I was like you and wanted to put everything that I could, into that post. To the point, that when I got done with the post, I had to go back, and edit it to make it fit the maximum characters allowed, more often than Not. Back then a Christian Brother came along and encouraged me, {cannot remember his name}, that if I would learn to strive to keep the posts much shorter, it would be three times as effective. And he was the one that shared with me that "Wise is the man with few words." He explained to me that most of my potential audience, will SKIP over extremely long posts. Therefore, the short posts, will reach more of an audience. Yes, it was a learning curve, to keep the Posts SHORT, or SHORTER, and still have my main points within it. I hope I have done well with that WISE advice.

I agree with MOST of your post, however there is one critical error, and I will highlight it in red: which talked about how God required obedience, which puts it right back under works righteousness. It is not a required obedience, it is IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU WILL KEEP MY COMMANDS. In other words, He will change our HEART after we are Born Again, to WANT TO OBEY HIM. It is PART OF OUR LOVE FOR HIM, not I HAVE TO. I know that will be a hard hurdle for you to get over, but it is all the difference in the world.

It reminds me of the following verse:


Romans 14:15 (NKJV)
15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.

Nothing like His word... and it;s an amazing journey.

I agree:

Acts 3:19-23, “Repent therefore and turn back, for the blotting out of your sins, in order that times of refreshing might come from the presence of the Master, and that He sends יהושע Messiah, pre-appointed for you, whom heaven needs to receive until the times of restoration of all matters, of which the Mighty One spoke through the mouth of all His set-apart prophets since of old. For Mosheh truly said to the fathers, ‘יהוה your Mighty One shall raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brothers. Him you shall hear according to all matters, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every being who does not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.”

Our Shepherd leads.... Most preach a hollow "hope" in Messiah, I say we ahould do what HE says.

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

Luke 6:46, “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

And yet it is you, and him, which reject the Word's of the Christ in this matter. But that's OK Decon. We are all free to make our own choices.

You believe Christ's Word's "doesn't matter Pal", and I believe they are all that matters. This does explain our disagreement.

I appreciate your honesty Decon. At least I know where you stand.

Philippians 3:5-7, “Having been circumcised on the eighth day, I am of the nation of Israel, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews. As far as the Law is concerned, I was a Pharisee. As for my zeal, I was a persecutor of the church. As far as righteousness in the Law is concerned, I was blameless. But whatever things were assets to me, these I now consider a loss for the sake of the Messiah.”

BOth ignoring Paul's own admission.

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition.”

We are in agreement, but why assume His commands are the ones given to Moses? There’s a massive disconnect there for me.